pt71:

I thought refuelling was brought in after the wake of cars catching fire in the cockpits because the fuel tank needed to be big enough to last and the only place it could go was in the drivers cockpit.  In fact the drivers seats used to sit on top of the fuel tank and it came down either side of the driver too.  I just hope the advances in safety protect the fuel tanks/drivers a LOT more than they used to because unstable cars and full fuel tanks is a recipe for disaster.

the fuel tanks must be at their safest because we have seen heavy crash after heavy crash and yet none of them showed signs of catching fire.

guthrum:

An interesting point which springs from this is the much talked-about improvement in road-car technology supposedly deriving from F1.

Developments in transmission and suspension, increasing mechanical grip and smooth ride, are much more directly transferrable to the road-car industry than the fiendishly elaborate and minutely finely-tuned aerodynamics which now adorn F1 cars.

Underfloor diffusers are liable to be crunched by speed-bumps, and the ride heights are too high to be very effective anyway.

Commercially useful R&D could, maybe, be an incentive for cash-strapped Manufacturers to stay in F1.

Thanks Guthrum, I was hoping that someone would see the potential commercial spin off from spending develoment money on mechanical grip issues rather than little commercial gains in pure aero packages.

I also alluded to the driver imput part of this side of the develeopment. A driver can do nothing about the aero effects other than to drive faster, but his imput is going to have an instrumental effect on the way the mechanical grip behaves, ok it may produce high grip levels and faster cornering speeds but that will make entering at the correct speed and the amount  a driver explores the edge envelope of the available grip much more critical.

It would be interesting to see if the mass damper system, once unbelievably described as a moving aero device will be able to make a comeback, as certainly this sort of technology is more readily adapatable for a commercial use. How about improving the safety of high speed handling on top heavy ambulances for one.

As for the motives of Ross Brawn I should say they are coming from the passion within in him to see F1 as the pinnicle of sport and entertainment. He is suggesting a change that will increase the driver imput required for success, thus as a master engineer and obviously skilled in eeking out the best loophole in the engineering rules, if he wanted to maximise his teams  chances he would try to have the rules to be more design controlled and even less driver imput, and he would shut up when he alone sees an expoitable loophole.

As far as him being tenously involved in things that occured iin 1994, a certain poster I am sure was busy filling diapers at that time, and from the content of his posts has obviously run out of them.

guthrum:

An interesting point which springs from this is the much talked-about improvement in road-car technology supposedly deriving from F1.

Developments in transmission and suspension, increasing mechanical grip and smooth ride, are much more directly transferrable to the road-car industry than the fiendishly elaborate and minutely finely-tuned aerodynamics which now adorn F1 cars.

Underfloor diffusers are liable to be crunched by speed-bumps, and the ride heights are too high to be very effective anyway.

Commercially useful R&D could, maybe, be an incentive for cash-strapped Manufacturers to stay in F1.

Good post Gunthrum, I said exactly the same thing in the other thread about Brawn. The speeds at which most of us travel in our everyday cars would pretty much make aero grip useless anyway.Much more uselfull to bring back active suspension into F1 and see how far that could be developed.

ross brawn is well known for being extremely smart and has demonstrated on numerous ocasions how far the rules can be pushed for an advantage and has had great success as a result. however, he played a mojor role in trying to improve overtaking this year and we have seen the results of those efforts. as long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race the chances of overtaking will remain low nor matter what the aerodynamic specifications are.

a driver's input can make huge contribution to all aspects of the car including aerodynamic developments after all only the drivers feel how the car behaves in different parts of the track this is the reason hamilton has been working closer with his design team to come up with a much faster car for next season. 

i am not sure how much suspention development in f1 is transferable to road cars because the suspention systems are completely different from each other. car manufacturers have research and development centres which come up with enovations which are directed towards road use and i think some road cars are more advanced than f1 cars in terms of application of technology. for example roadcars had kers before f1 cars. bmw developed a car which drives itself at race speeds around a track once it has learned the track layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF_KaWzxq4&feature=PlayList&p=7CA936908B32106E&index=4

the performance of hamilton's car next year will confirm the importance of driver input in the design of an f1 car. 

aveli666:

the performance of hamilton's car next year will confirm the importance of driver input in the design of an f1 car. 

...as opposed to all other drivers who, happened to be steam roller enginiers..

aveli666:

ross brawn is well known for being extremely smart and has demonstrated on numerous ocasions how far the rules can be pushed for an advantage and has had great success as a result. however, he played a mojor role in trying to improve overtaking this year and we have seen the results of those efforts. as long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race the chances of overtaking will remain low nor matter what the aerodynamic specifications are.

a driver's input can make huge contribution to all aspects of the car including aerodynamic developments after all only the drivers feel how the car behaves in different parts of the track this is the reason hamilton has been working closer with his design team to come up with a much faster car for next season. 

i am not sure how much suspention development in f1 is transferable to road cars because the suspention systems are completely different from each other. car manufacturers have research and development centres which come up with enovations which are directed towards road use and i think some road cars are more advanced than f1 cars in terms of application of technology. for example roadcars had kers before f1 cars. bmw developed a car which drives itself at race speeds around a track once it has learned the track layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF_KaWzxq4&feature=PlayList&p=7CA936908B32106E&index=4

the performance of hamilton's car next year will confirm the importance of driver input in the design of an f1 car. 

Actually Aveli the principles of the suspension are the same it's just the application......

no tell you what, your right Aveli aerodynamics wont make any difference at all and the suspension on an F1 car is completely different to a road car. No similarities at all. I agree as I am sure does everyone else on the forum that next year Hamilton will win because he is the best car designer and driver in F1 without a doubt. Anyone who says different is just making things up.

I dont know what Brawn is thinking making such silly comments. What does he know. I for one am glad you were here to set straight about this. Your knowledge of everything is a great inspiration to us all.

Thanks for schooling us.

jack 67:

aveli666:

ross brawn is well known for being extremely smart and has demonstrated on numerous ocasions how far the rules can be pushed for an advantage and has had great success as a result. however, he played a mojor role in trying to improve overtaking this year and we have seen the results of those efforts. as long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race the chances of overtaking will remain low nor matter what the aerodynamic specifications are.

a driver's input can make huge contribution to all aspects of the car including aerodynamic developments after all only the drivers feel how the car behaves in different parts of the track this is the reason hamilton has been working closer with his design team to come up with a much faster car for next season. 

i am not sure how much suspention development in f1 is transferable to road cars because the suspention systems are completely different from each other. car manufacturers have research and development centres which come up with enovations which are directed towards road use and i think some road cars are more advanced than f1 cars in terms of application of technology. for example roadcars had kers before f1 cars. bmw developed a car which drives itself at race speeds around a track once it has learned the track layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF_KaWzxq4&feature=PlayList&p=7CA936908B32106E&index=4

the performance of hamilton's car next year will confirm the importance of driver input in the design of an f1 car. 

Actually Aveli the principles of the suspension are the same it's just the application......

no tell you what, your right Aveli aerodynamics wont make any difference at all and the suspension on an F1 car is completely different to a road car. No similarities at all. I agree as I am sure does everyone else on the forum that next year Hamilton will win because he is the best car designer and driver in F1 without a doubt. Anyone who says different is just making things up.

I dont know what Brawn is thinking making such silly comments. What does he know. I for one am glad you were here to set straight about this. Your knowledge of everything is a great inspiration to us all.

Thanks for schooling us.

symptomes don't seem to want to subside, dow may road cars reach top speeds of 200mph, or go round corners at 180mph and use the same suspention for te straights? i wonder how vast the load variations are. how many f1 cars are built for comfort?

oh no, i wont know because i am not infected. 

aveli666:

jack 67:

aveli666:

ross brawn is well known for being extremely smart and has demonstrated on numerous ocasions how far the rules can be pushed for an advantage and has had great success as a result. however, he played a mojor role in trying to improve overtaking this year and we have seen the results of those efforts. as long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race the chances of overtaking will remain low nor matter what the aerodynamic specifications are.

a driver's input can make huge contribution to all aspects of the car including aerodynamic developments after all only the drivers feel how the car behaves in different parts of the track this is the reason hamilton has been working closer with his design team to come up with a much faster car for next season. 

i am not sure how much suspention development in f1 is transferable to road cars because the suspention systems are completely different from each other. car manufacturers have research and development centres which come up with enovations which are directed towards road use and i think some road cars are more advanced than f1 cars in terms of application of technology. for example roadcars had kers before f1 cars. bmw developed a car which drives itself at race speeds around a track once it has learned the track layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF_KaWzxq4&feature=PlayList&p=7CA936908B32106E&index=4

the performance of hamilton's car next year will confirm the importance of driver input in the design of an f1 car. 

Actually Aveli the principles of the suspension are the same it's just the application......

no tell you what, your right Aveli aerodynamics wont make any difference at all and the suspension on an F1 car is completely different to a road car. No similarities at all. I agree as I am sure does everyone else on the forum that next year Hamilton will win because he is the best car designer and driver in F1 without a doubt. Anyone who says different is just making things up.

I dont know what Brawn is thinking making such silly comments. What does he know. I for one am glad you were here to set straight about this. Your knowledge of everything is a great inspiration to us all.

Thanks for schooling us.

symptomes don't seem to want to subside, dow may road cars reach top speeds of 200mph, or go round corners at 180mph and use the same suspention for te straights? i wonder how vast the load variations are. how many f1 cars are built for comfort?

oh no, i wont know because i am not infected. 

whats the matter. I agreed with you. You dont need to post anymore in this thread. We are all convinced you are right and Hamilton is the best ever.

aveli: "As long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race, the chances of overtaking will remain low no matter what the aerodynamic specifications are."

Yes if a car is faster and starts at the front it will probably stay at the front. This is logical but I expect that this is where the engine equalisation will come in (if it occurs). If they all produce the same BHP then it will be the mechanical grip and cleaner air which will separate the best from the worst. Other advantages may come from how the engine produces that power (the torque curve) and the efficiency of the engines allowing for better use of fuel. What I would be interested in is that if a car needs less fuel to complete a race would it still be used as a factor in the required minimum weight of the car? Surely that would disadvantage the teams that did manage to produce a more fuel efficient engine. We may even see clearer examples of a driver's skill and confidence.

Some people might think that the more dedicated focus on producing practical technology for the road would create an impure F1 in that the machines are not so dedicated to their purpose anymore. I suppose the question is, what makes F1 what it is? What makes it the pinacle of motorsport? As some would define it.

FYI, aveli, the current MP4-24 uses double wishbone suspension which I imagine is not too different from a road cars in principle.

pt71:

I thought refuelling was brought in after the wake of cars catching fire in the cockpits because the fuel tank needed to be big enough to last and the only place it could go was in the drivers cockpit.  In fact the drivers seats used to sit on top of the fuel tank and it came down either side of the driver too.  I just hope the advances in safety protect the fuel tanks/drivers a LOT more than they used to because unstable cars and full fuel tanks is a recipe for disaster.

Reueling was reintroduced as it was thought it would improve the racing. I dont think it had anything to do with cars catching fire.

Actually the last time I remember a car going up in a fireball after a crash was Gerhard Berger In Imola in about 89 i think.

I imagine refueling is a much higher fire risk these days so I think they should be ok.

jack 67:

aveli666:

jack 67:

aveli666:

ross brawn is well known for being extremely smart and has demonstrated on numerous ocasions how far the rules can be pushed for an advantage and has had great success as a result. however, he played a mojor role in trying to improve overtaking this year and we have seen the results of those efforts. as long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race the chances of overtaking will remain low nor matter what the aerodynamic specifications are.

a driver's input can make huge contribution to all aspects of the car including aerodynamic developments after all only the drivers feel how the car behaves in different parts of the track this is the reason hamilton has been working closer with his design team to come up with a much faster car for next season. 

i am not sure how much suspention development in f1 is transferable to road cars because the suspention systems are completely different from each other. car manufacturers have research and development centres which come up with enovations which are directed towards road use and i think some road cars are more advanced than f1 cars in terms of application of technology. for example roadcars had kers before f1 cars. bmw developed a car which drives itself at race speeds around a track once it has learned the track layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF_KaWzxq4&feature=PlayList&p=7CA936908B32106E&index=4

the performance of hamilton's car next year will confirm the importance of driver input in the design of an f1 car. 

Actually Aveli the principles of the suspension are the same it's just the application......

no tell you what, your right Aveli aerodynamics wont make any difference at all and the suspension on an F1 car is completely different to a road car. No similarities at all. I agree as I am sure does everyone else on the forum that next year Hamilton will win because he is the best car designer and driver in F1 without a doubt. Anyone who says different is just making things up.

I dont know what Brawn is thinking making such silly comments. What does he know. I for one am glad you were here to set straight about this. Your knowledge of everything is a great inspiration to us all.

Thanks for schooling us.

symptomes don't seem to want to subside, dow may road cars reach top speeds of 200mph, or go round corners at 180mph and use the same suspention for te straights? i wonder how vast the load variations are. how many f1 cars are built for comfort?

oh no, i wont know because i am not infected. 

whats the matter. I agreed with you. You dont need to post anymore in this thread. We are all convinced you are right and Hamilton is the best ever.

symptoms resistant to treatment. 

f.eric:

aveli: "As long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race, the chances of overtaking will remain low no matter what the aerodynamic specifications are."

Yes if a car is faster and starts at the front it will probably stay at the front. This is logical but I expect that this is where the engine equalisation will come in (if it occurs). If they all produce the same BHP then it will be the mechanical grip and cleaner air which will separate the best from the worst. Other advantages may come from how the engine produces that power (the torque curve) and the efficiency of the engines allowing for better use of fuel. What I would be interested in is that if a car needs less fuel to complete a race would it still be used as a factor in the required minimum weight of the car? Surely that would disadvantage the teams that did manage to produce a more fuel efficient engine. We may even see clearer examples of a driver's skill and confidence.

Some people might think that the more dedicated focus on producing practical technology for the road would create an impure F1 in that the machines are not so dedicated to their purpose anymore. I suppose the question is, what makes F1 what it is? What makes it the pinacle of motorsport? As some would define it.

FYI, aveli, the current MP4-24 uses double wishbone suspension which I imagine is not too different from a road cars in principle. 

don't forget that even if they had identical engines, suspention and aerodynamic pacages, the differences in chassis design alone will leed to some cars being much faster than others. engine power makes a difference but the chassis performance makes the most difference. i think we all noticed the difference in performance between the brawn, mclaren and force india albeit they use the same engine. in karting championships, identical engines are used and the chassis design makes the most difference.

i agree with you about the double wishbone suspention layout, the trouble is the suspension components on the f1 cars are mounted differently to those of road cars. even the springs are mounted differently. f1 cars use carbon fibre suspension components to reduce mass and improve structural strength for extreme loads. so i doubt much of suspension development in f1 is transferable to road cars as they are designed with different objectives.

jack 67:

whats the matter. I agreed with you. You dont need to post anymore in this thread. We are all convinced you are right and Hamilton is the best ever.

i have never come across anyone intelligent enough to know what i need to do without me telling them. 

aveli666:

jack 67:

whats the matter. I agreed with you. You dont need to post anymore in this thread. We are all convinced you are right and Hamilton is the best ever.

i have never come across anyone intelligent enough to know what i need to do without me telling them. 

That explains quite a lot. Maybe if you had met someone intelligent enough to give you some guidence you would not be making all these rediculous comments.

aveli666:

f.eric:

aveli: "As long as the fastest cars are in front at the start of each race, the chances of overtaking will remain low no matter what the aerodynamic specifications are."

Yes if a car is faster and starts at the front it will probably stay at the front. This is logical but I expect that this is where the engine equalisation will come in (if it occurs). If they all produce the same BHP then it will be the mechanical grip and cleaner air which will separate the best from the worst. Other advantages may come from how the engine produces that power (the torque curve) and the efficiency of the engines allowing for better use of fuel. What I would be interested in is that if a car needs less fuel to complete a race would it still be used as a factor in the required minimum weight of the car? Surely that would disadvantage the teams that did manage to produce a more fuel efficient engine. We may even see clearer examples of a driver's skill and confidence.

Some people might think that the more dedicated focus on producing practical technology for the road would create an impure F1 in that the machines are not so dedicated to their purpose anymore. I suppose the question is, what makes F1 what it is? What makes it the pinacle of motorsport? As some would define it.

FYI, aveli, the current MP4-24 uses double wishbone suspension which I imagine is not too different from a road cars in principle. 

don't forget that even if they had identical engines, suspention and aerodynamic pacages, the differences in chassis design alone will leed to some cars being much faster than others. engine power makes a difference but the chassis performance makes the most difference. i think we all noticed the difference in performance between the brawn, mclaren and force india albeit they use the same engine. in karting championships, identical engines are used and the chassis design makes the most difference.

i agree with you about the double wishbone suspention layout, the trouble is the suspension components on the f1 cars are mounted differently to those of road cars. even the springs are mounted differently. f1 cars use carbon fibre suspension components to reduce mass and improve structural strength for extreme loads. so i doubt much of suspension development in f1 is transferable to road cars as they are designed with different objectives.

1992 Nigel Mansell obliterated the rest of the field in his active suspension williams. Active suspension is now becoming more and more common in road cars. Many of the things we see on our road cars started life in racing cars. My dad, who is in his 70's, drives a nice little Honda Accord that has a semi automatic gearbox. Other than that his car has little in common with a 1989 Ferrari F1.

Reducing aero will allow the cars to run closer together without taking such a big hit in grip. By doing that you can then get the cars closer into the braking zones. It's still not going to be easy to overtake and its still going to be the driver with the best car control that will come out ahead.

I dont really understand why your resistant to this change. It would suit Hamilton down to the ground. LH has already demonstrated his overtaking skills and how late he can be on the brakes. Hte trouble is that even as good as LH is he cant get round the fact when closing up behind a car he starts to lose grip. How many times do we hear the comment, "lets see what he can do in clear air"? How many times have we seen LH or FA or KR etc etc close up on a car hand over fist, only to be stuck once they get within a second.

Whilst F1 has to be at the pinnacle of technology it does not mean that technology has to be aero.