A driver is a critical part of the feedback loop...

The engineers need the driver to generate on the limit data, and to provide an insight into how the car is performing and reacting on the limit...

Just look at how Kimi has destroyed the Ferrari by failing to communciate with the engineers...

So yes, the engineers do the engineering, but they can be seriously misguided or hampered by a poor driver...

BrawnGP lost all their advantage because the dodo is one of the worst drivers in the history of F1 - he was always famous for making a bad car worse...

Hamilton is more in line with Michael Schumacher - he can get the team pointing in the right direction, and create a great atmosphere to work in...

jack 67:

aveli666:

jack 67:

aveli666:

raikkster:

lewishamiltonmclaren:

aveli666:

lewishamiltonmclaren:

Alonso is talking a load of rubbish. He is under Ferrari now and can use their simulators and talk to the engineers e.t.c. until the car is ready for testing.

Drivers improve cars otherwise McLaren would have not finished 3rd in the WDC with the car they had in the first half of the season.

when he made progress he was keen to shout it out but now trying to damp down what hamilton has done this season. i think he has lost confidence in himself. 

 I think the opposite, he has matured and now relished the challenge of improving a car which didn't look like it could win a race to win a race and help get 3rd in the constructors for McLaren.

In  Australia, given how bad the McLaren was if you told me they would end up third and beat Ferrari by 1 point, I would not have believed it and this is mainly down to Lewis. He said in the press conference yesterday that they have a much improved car ready for 2010 and the BBC confirmed that they made the biggest gain in the season.

You guys really don't have a clue.  The Mclaren's primary problem at the start of the season was that it had *** all downforce.  The designers/engineers fixed that, not Lewis.

I keep hearing how Lewis is the one responsible for the Mclaren's improvement, but if he is - as you guys seem to believe - the god of car design and the guy with all of the answers, then why was the Mclaren so awful at the beginning of the season in the first place?

 Anyway, that's my first and last post on what is clearly yet another trolling thread from aveli. 

the 09 car was poor at the start of the season because hamilton was not closely involved in it's design. because the car was so bad, hamilton desided that he will be closely involved in the design of the car to ensure that it will be competitive from the start and it will be.

hamilton also did a great job to lead the team to develop the 09 car as well as they did and he said so himself in that interview with jake. he said if he left it to the engineers all they'll say is they need more downforce here and there but he deals with how the car behaves when he enters a corner. he ask them to explain certain changes in behavior of the car under certain conditions and he suggests to them how to correct it.

from your post, you will never accept that hamilton can do anything right. even if he won a race you will look for criticism. 

So Hamilton claims credit for developing the car. No real surprise there then!

alonso said what he said with the sole purpose of discrediting hamilton. he was so eager to tell the world about how he braught 6tenths to mclaren and how he braught the rebault to the front in 08 and as soon as hamilton performs better than he has done in the past, he is claiming only engineers develops cars. shame on him. 

You and lewishamiltonmclaren have both stated that the 09 car was rubbish at the start of the season because LH was not involved in the cars design, you claim it is also down to LH that the car is now good.

What an incredible insult to all those working behind the scenes to give LH a car that can win. A driver will obiously be able to provide valuable data to the engineers and the more technical knowledge has the better he will be able to communicate that data. But to suggest that he is responsible for the cars development is monumentally arrogant!

no one has insulted anyone by saying hamilton provided the leadership for the rapid development of the mp4 24 in bringing it from the back row to the front of the field. it is not an insult, he did provide the leadership. all the employees at mclaren worked hard to provide hamilton with a winning car and he steered them all in the right direction to achieve that.

hamilton, after discovering how poor his 09 car was, said he would be in a much closer consultation with his design team to ensure that they don't provide him with another poor performing car for 2010 so we will find out if his close consultation is of any value by march. 

jack 67:

aveli666:

jack 67:

aveli666:

raikkster:

lewishamiltonmclaren:

aveli666:

lewishamiltonmclaren:

Alonso is talking a load of rubbish. He is under Ferrari now and can use their simulators and talk to the engineers e.t.c. until the car is ready for testing.

Drivers improve cars otherwise McLaren would have not finished 3rd in the WDC with the car they had in the first half of the season.

when he made progress he was keen to shout it out but now trying to damp down what hamilton has done this season. i think he has lost confidence in himself. 

 I think the opposite, he has matured and now relished the challenge of improving a car which didn't look like it could win a race to win a race and help get 3rd in the constructors for McLaren.

In  Australia, given how bad the McLaren was if you told me they would end up third and beat Ferrari by 1 point, I would not have believed it and this is mainly down to Lewis. He said in the press conference yesterday that they have a much improved car ready for 2010 and the BBC confirmed that they made the biggest gain in the season.

You guys really don't have a clue.  The Mclaren's primary problem at the start of the season was that it had *** all downforce.  The designers/engineers fixed that, not Lewis.

I keep hearing how Lewis is the one responsible for the Mclaren's improvement, but if he is - as you guys seem to believe - the god of car design and the guy with all of the answers, then why was the Mclaren so awful at the beginning of the season in the first place?

 Anyway, that's my first and last post on what is clearly yet another trolling thread from aveli. 

the 09 car was poor at the start of the season because hamilton was not closely involved in it's design. because the car was so bad, hamilton desided that he will be closely involved in the design of the car to ensure that it will be competitive from the start and it will be.

hamilton also did a great job to lead the team to develop the 09 car as well as they did and he said so himself in that interview with jake. he said if he left it to the engineers all they'll say is they need more downforce here and there but he deals with how the car behaves when he enters a corner. he ask them to explain certain changes in behavior of the car under certain conditions and he suggests to them how to correct it.

from your post, you will never accept that hamilton can do anything right. even if he won a race you will look for criticism. 

So Hamilton claims credit for developing the car. No real surprise there then!

alonso said what he said with the sole purpose of discrediting hamilton. he was so eager to tell the world about how he braught 6tenths to mclaren and how he braught the rebault to the front in 08 and as soon as hamilton performs better than he has done in the past, he is claiming only engineers develops cars. shame on him. 

You and lewishamiltonmclaren have both stated that the 09 car was rubbish at the start of the season because LH was not involved in the cars design, you claim it is also down to LH that the car is now good.

What an incredible insult to all those working behind the scenes to give LH a car that can win. A driver will obiously be able to provide valuable data to the engineers and the more technical knowledge has the better he will be able to communicate that data. But to suggest that he is responsible for the cars development is monumentally arrogant!

 

I can almost hear the feverish typing of the phrase: "very interesting jack67 and i am now glad that you understand that the gravitational pull on the moon means that downforce is king and surface area is queen and cars use razor blades for wheels to get better grip and hamilton has six arms so he can drive and work on the car at the same time"

Or something.

I also find it hilarious that Aveli had to reply to her own post a few hours later because nobody took the bait the first time around. I don't believe I had considered that tactic in my 'how to create an epic thread' post. How remiss of me, as it seems to work very well.

mattw42:

]

I can almost hear the feverish typing of the phrase: "very interesting jack67 and i am now glad that you understand that the gravitational pull on the moon means that downforce is king and surface area is queen and cars use razor blades for wheels to get better grip and hamilton has six arms so he can drive and work on the car at the same time"

Or something.

I also find it hilarious that Aveli had to reply to her own post a few hours later because nobody took the bait the first time around. I don't believe I had considered that tactic in my 'how to create an epic thread' post. How remiss of me, as it seems to work very well.

what is this nonsense? if you have nothing to add to the discussion don't add to it and stop writing nonsense about me. if you don't know how to bring about a discussion it's your problem and if you weren't aware that it is the objective of this forum to bring about discussions now you know.

did alonso not say he took 0.6s to mclaren and was he not praised for improving the renault so much in 08? how could he have suddenly forgotten how to improve the car? answer, it was a fluke, alonso did nothing to improve the car in 08 just like he did in 09. 

aveli666:

mattw42:

]

I can almost hear the feverish typing of the phrase: "very interesting jack67 and i am now glad that you understand that the gravitational pull on the moon means that downforce is king and surface area is queen and cars use razor blades for wheels to get better grip and hamilton has six arms so he can drive and work on the car at the same time"

Or something.

I also find it hilarious that Aveli had to reply to her own post a few hours later because nobody took the bait the first time around. I don't believe I had considered that tactic in my 'how to create an epic thread' post. How remiss of me, as it seems to work very well.

what is this nonsense? if you have nothing to add to the discussion don't add to it and stop writing nonsense about me. if you don't know how to bring about a discussion it's your problem and if you weren't aware that it is the objective of this forum to bring about discussions now you know.

did alonso not say he took 0.6s to mclaren and was he not praised for improving the renault so much in 08? how could he have suddenly forgotten how to improve the car? answer, it was a fluke, alonso did nothing to improve the car in 08 just like he did in 09. 

Awesome stuff. Nice try at reigniting your trolling thread. Not going to happen (no matter how many times you cut and paste that same paragraph in your responses).

mattw42:

aveli666:

mattw42:

]

I can almost hear the feverish typing of the phrase: "very interesting jack67 and i am now glad that you understand that the gravitational pull on the moon means that downforce is king and surface area is queen and cars use razor blades for wheels to get better grip and hamilton has six arms so he can drive and work on the car at the same time"

Or something.

I also find it hilarious that Aveli had to reply to her own post a few hours later because nobody took the bait the first time around. I don't believe I had considered that tactic in my 'how to create an epic thread' post. How remiss of me, as it seems to work very well.

what is this nonsense? if you have nothing to add to the discussion don't add to it and stop writing nonsense about me. if you don't know how to bring about a discussion it's your problem and if you weren't aware that it is the objective of this forum to bring about discussions now you know.

did alonso not say he took 0.6s to mclaren and was he not praised for improving the renault so much in 08? how could he have suddenly forgotten how to improve the car? answer, it was a fluke, alonso did nothing to improve the car in 08 just like he did in 09. 

Awesome stuff. Nice try at reigniting your trolling thread. Not going to happen (no matter how many times you cut and paste that same paragraph in your responses).

why do you bother to post on a trolling thread if you really believe it is a trolling thread?, why post if you have nothing to add to the discussion? why do you keep making wrong accusations? prejudice is not an attractive trate to have.

aveli666:

mattw42:

aveli666:

mattw42:

]

I can almost hear the feverish typing of the phrase: "very interesting jack67 and i am now glad that you understand that the gravitational pull on the moon means that downforce is king and surface area is queen and cars use razor blades for wheels to get better grip and hamilton has six arms so he can drive and work on the car at the same time"

Or something.

I also find it hilarious that Aveli had to reply to her own post a few hours later because nobody took the bait the first time around. I don't believe I had considered that tactic in my 'how to create an epic thread' post. How remiss of me, as it seems to work very well.

what is this nonsense? if you have nothing to add to the discussion don't add to it and stop writing nonsense about me. if you don't know how to bring about a discussion it's your problem and if you weren't aware that it is the objective of this forum to bring about discussions now you know.

did alonso not say he took 0.6s to mclaren and was he not praised for improving the renault so much in 08? how could he have suddenly forgotten how to improve the car? answer, it was a fluke, alonso did nothing to improve the car in 08 just like he did in 09. 

Awesome stuff. Nice try at reigniting your trolling thread. Not going to happen (no matter how many times you cut and paste that same paragraph in your responses).

why do you bother to post on a trolling thread if you really believe it is a trolling thread?, why post if you have nothing to add to the discussion? why do you keep making wrong accusations? prejudice is not an attractive trate to have.

Oh, it's just my way of getting through the day. The Samaritans were closed.

The floor is all yours. Rant away!

To put Alonso's claim into perspective.

 He did not claim he brought 0.6 seconds to the McLaren through engineering prowess. His claim was more on his ability as a driver. it may well have come from initial pre-season testing where Alonso made some adjustments to suit his driving style and was able to produce 0.6 seconds overall performance gain.

Same for the claim that Hamilton was mostly responsible for the 3rd position in the WCC, as nearly all McLarens points were down to him and it was his ability to get the very best out of the car, even when it was not performing well, that earned the points.

So wind your neck in and consider that each part of the team has a role and that Hamiltons determination to involve himself with the details of the car, has helped him to a greater understanding of it, and thus he has the utmost confidence in both his ability and that when he knows he has found the limits of the cars performance he can rely on the car to perform the same way at every corner. Close team work creates thrust, and a driver needs to totally believe in that trust he has with his engineers to be able to trust his life by driving the car on and beyond its limits. That trust was reinforced in Abu Dhabi by the decision to call him in to the garage when they saw signs that what he had been feeling in the car was evident on the telemetry. He needs to trust that his engineers will look after his safety in situations just like that one in the future and he now has renewed utmost confidence in his engineers, to be able to drive the car at the pace he does.

So it is a two way street, without the detailed and knowledgable feedback from the driver, not just on how it feels but why it feels that way (it felt better with 2% less camber), then the engineers can not build a car the driver has confidence in and the drivers speed drops. Nothing motivates more than eager enthusiasm, honest appreciation and a willingness to put in the hours learning, testing and checking so that every effort to improve the car ends up as a performance gain because the driver has the ability, knowledge and skill of feel to turn their efforts into results.

Hamilton, as well as team McLaren, can all feel proud of the best ever comebacks seen in a season.

Since crashgate Teflonso has no choice other than to distance himself from design, engineering or the strategic decision making process. As after all he is only a driver, just doing his job. Since spygate he is keeping very schtum about bringing any 0. seconds back to Ferrari.

 I can hear the whispered radio coms next season.....

"Psssssst Nando, we are stopping on lap 12" 

RaggedEdge:

A driver is a critical part of the feedback loop...

The engineers need the driver to generate on the limit data, and to provide an insight into how the car is performing and reacting on the limit...

Just look at how Kimi has destroyed the Ferrari by failing to communciate with the engineers...

So yes, the engineers do the engineering, but they can be seriously misguided or hampered by a poor driver...

BrawnGP lost all their advantage because the dodo is one of the worst drivers in the history of F1 - he was always famous for making a bad car worse...

Hamilton is more in line with Michael Schumacher - he can get the team pointing in the right direction, and create a great atmosphere to work in...

Now you only need to explain why the McLaren was so bad at the start of the season, despite Hamilton being there for two years already. And don't say it is down to the double-diffuser, because the car was a dog before and after they added a double diffuser. Only once they changed the chasis the car improved. So how could Hamilton be so wrong? Was it a case of the engineers being seriously misguided or hampered by a poor driver, and only once they concentrated on their own knowledge and ignored Hamilton the car improved?

aveli666:

raikkster:

lewishamiltonmclaren:

aveli666:

lewishamiltonmclaren:

Alonso is talking a load of rubbish. He is under Ferrari now and can use their simulators and talk to the engineers e.t.c. until the car is ready for testing.

Drivers improve cars otherwise McLaren would have not finished 3rd in the WDC with the car they had in the first half of the season.

when he made progress he was keen to shout it out but now trying to damp down what hamilton has done this season. i think he has lost confidence in himself. 

 I think the opposite, he has matured and now relished the challenge of improving a car which didn't look like it could win a race to win a race and help get 3rd in the constructors for McLaren.

In  Australia, given how bad the McLaren was if you told me they would end up third and beat Ferrari by 1 point, I would not have believed it and this is mainly down to Lewis. He said in the press conference yesterday that they have a much improved car ready for 2010 and the BBC confirmed that they made the biggest gain in the season.

You guys really don't have a clue.  The Mclaren's primary problem at the start of the season was that it had *** all downforce.  The designers/engineers fixed that, not Lewis.

I keep hearing how Lewis is the one responsible for the Mclaren's improvement, but if he is - as you guys seem to believe - the god of car design and the guy with all of the answers, then why was the Mclaren so awful at the beginning of the season in the first place?

 Anyway, that's my first and last post on what is clearly yet another trolling thread from aveli. 

the 09 car was poor at the start of the season because hamilton was not closely involved in it's design. because the car was so bad, hamilton desided that he will be closely involved in the design of the car to ensure that it will be competitive from the start and it will be.

hamilton also did a great job to lead the team to develop the 09 car as well as they did and he said so himself in that interview with jake. he said if he left it to the engineers all they'll say is they need more downforce here and there but he deals with how the car behaves when he enters a corner. he ask them to explain certain changes in behavior of the car under certain conditions and he suggests to them how to correct it.

from your post, you will never accept that hamilton can do anything right. even if he won a race you will look for criticism. 

Does the above not confirm what Alonso is saying then?

Limited testing means the designers have to work a lot harder now, therefore the initial car is down to the designers.  They can then improve from driver input and computer analysis from race days.  Gone are the days when the driver gave much valued input in the car.  Granted they still give some input, but majority is now taken from computer analysis.

gavm912:

Does the above not confirm what Alonso is saying then?

Limited testing means the designers have to work a lot harder now, therefore the initial car is down to the designers.  They can then improve from driver input and computer analysis from race days.  Gone are the days when the driver gave much valued input in the car.  Granted they still give some input, but majority is now taken from computer analysis.

**** the test restrictions apply to all teams and all members of the teams work hard to design manufacture and finetune cars for drivers to drive them. so the drivers should be the leaders of the teams because all employees work towards the success of the drivers wich is inevitably their success too. designers can design cars but can design better cars with good consultation of drivers because only the drivers what level of comfort/stability they need in order to get the most out of the cars through corners.

you will see the result os hamilton's closer consultation with his engineers in march 2010.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04112009/58/hamilton-determined-top.html 

aveli666:

gavm912:

Does the above not confirm what Alonso is saying then?

Limited testing means the designers have to work a lot harder now, therefore the initial car is down to the designers.  They can then improve from driver input and computer analysis from race days.  Gone are the days when the driver gave much valued input in the car.  Granted they still give some input, but majority is now taken from computer analysis.

**** the test restrictions apply to all teams and all members of the teams work hard to design manufacture and finetune cars for drivers to drive them. so the drivers should be the leaders of the teams because all employees work towards the success of the drivers wich is inevitably their success too. designers can design cars but can design better cars with good consultation of drivers because only the drivers what level of comfort/stability they need in order to get the most out of the cars through corners.

you will see the result os hamilton's closer consultation with his engineers in march 2010.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04112009/58/hamilton-determined-top.html 

So when it suits him it is HIS team and HE is the leader. Bit different from earlier this year when he was definately NOT the leader and was only doing what he was TOLD to do.

Like I say monumental arrogance. If the car is better next year it wil be because the design team and engineers have worked hard all year to understand what went wrong and how to prevent a repeat.

It's called Mclaren not Team Lewis.

jack 67:

aveli666:

gavm912:

Does the above not confirm what Alonso is saying then?

Limited testing means the designers have to work a lot harder now, therefore the initial car is down to the designers.  They can then improve from driver input and computer analysis from race days.  Gone are the days when the driver gave much valued input in the car.  Granted they still give some input, but majority is now taken from computer analysis.

**** the test restrictions apply to all teams and all members of the teams work hard to design manufacture and finetune cars for drivers to drive them. so the drivers should be the leaders of the teams because all employees work towards the success of the drivers wich is inevitably their success too. designers can design cars but can design better cars with good consultation of drivers because only the drivers what level of comfort/stability they need in order to get the most out of the cars through corners.

you will see the result os hamilton's closer consultation with his engineers in march 2010.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04112009/58/hamilton-determined-top.html 

So when it suits him it is HIS team and HE is the leader. Bit different from earlier this year when he was definately NOT the leader and was only doing what he was TOLD to do.

Like I say monumental arrogance. If the car is better next year it wil be because the design team and engineers have worked hard all year to understand what went wrong and how to prevent a repeat.

It's called Mclaren not Team Lewis.

who knows better what goes on at mclaren, you or hamilton? you never seize to amase me. 

aveli666:

jack 67:

aveli666:

gavm912:

Does the above not confirm what Alonso is saying then?

Limited testing means the designers have to work a lot harder now, therefore the initial car is down to the designers.  They can then improve from driver input and computer analysis from race days.  Gone are the days when the driver gave much valued input in the car.  Granted they still give some input, but majority is now taken from computer analysis.

**** the test restrictions apply to all teams and all members of the teams work hard to design manufacture and finetune cars for drivers to drive them. so the drivers should be the leaders of the teams because all employees work towards the success of the drivers wich is inevitably their success too. designers can design cars but can design better cars with good consultation of drivers because only the drivers what level of comfort/stability they need in order to get the most out of the cars through corners.

you will see the result os hamilton's closer consultation with his engineers in march 2010.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04112009/58/hamilton-determined-top.html 

So when it suits him it is HIS team and HE is the leader. Bit different from earlier this year when he was definately NOT the leader and was only doing what he was TOLD to do.

Like I say monumental arrogance. If the car is better next year it wil be because the design team and engineers have worked hard all year to understand what went wrong and how to prevent a repeat.

It's called Mclaren not Team Lewis.

who knows better what goes on at mclaren, you or hamilton? you never seize to amase me. 

So because Hamilton knows more about what goes on at Mclaren than me, he is the team leader?

I know more about what goes on at BT than Hamilton but the last time I checked my pay slip I was not the managing director.

You said yourself that Hamiliton did not lie because he was just doing what he was told to do and yet now he is the team leader.

There is no doubt that a driver contributes to the cars development and some drivers are better at this than others. Hamilton may be very good at this. But to suggest he is the main reason the car improved is rediculous and an insult to everyone else at Mclaren who worked long and hard to improve this years car and are working on next years.

Your real name's not Anthony Hamilton is it?

jack 67:

So because Hamilton knows more about what goes on at Mclaren than me, he is the team leader?

I know more about what goes on at BT than Hamilton but the last time I checked my pay slip I was not the managing director.

You said yourself that Hamiliton did not lie because he was just doing what he was told to do and yet now he is the team leader.

There is no doubt that a driver contributes to the cars development and some drivers are better at this than others. Hamilton may be very good at this. But to suggest he is the main reason the car improved is rediculous and an insult to everyone else at Mclaren who worked long and hard to improve this years car and are working on next years.

Your real name's not Anthony Hamilton is it?

hamilton knows better about what goes on at mclaren than you do so what he says about what goes on at mclaren is more accurate than what you say goes on at mclaren. i am sorry i overestimated your intelegence. nothing hamilton has said is ridiculous, you're just ridiculing yourself with your post. hamilton announced at the begining of 09 season that he would be in close consultation with his design team to ensure that his 2010 car is not as poor as the 2009 car. he has been in close consultation with his design team since and have further anounced that his car will be very strong next season, he said his 2010 car is already faster than the current car and further development work to come. hamilton says so and it is true so get back to reality.