twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

you may be right but i think the manufacturers did contribute tremencously to the spectacle. honda made the brawn story possible after all and don't forget that only one car at a time can win, i think the manufacturers are in f1 to promote their core business, road cars. 

seriously do you think thats acceptable? That the worlds so called pinnacle of motorsport, so advanced and so technologically superior and so competetive is full of teams who dont care whether they win or not? That, to them, as long as they publicise their products it doesnt matter whether they are succesful on the track, a few podiums every now and then and maybe if theyre lucky the odd win?

I'm not having a go at you, i'm genuinely interested in why people think the manufacturers are so good for F1. I think its a farce, there are teams on the grid who desperately want to win and dont have half the money of the the car companies, why should they be prevented from doing so by companies with more money than sense.

I'd rather have a grid full of teams who love racing, love motorsport and want to win, not flog 'aspirational, lifestyle statement' pieces of tin.

to be honest twinkle_toes22, appart from ferrari and toyota, the employees of all the manufacturers teams are teams which have existed as independent teams before the manufacturers came along to buy them. benneton inot renault, bar into honda,  so all of the employees are racers through and through. they all want to win but at corporate level, they want maximum exposure of their brand and winning brings the maximum exposure so in a round about way, they also do want to win. if their products were selling brilliantly, am sure they wouldn't mind spending nearly a billion pounds a year racing but if their losses are just under a billion pounds, it makes sense to use that billion poiunds in stemming their losses rather than going racing.

i don't mind if teams come and leave the sport so long as the sport stays after all in the football world cup different teams compete every four years and so is the olymics. things shouldn't remain stagnant, they should keep evolving just like the world does. 

 

A remarkably erudite and sensible answer to my question. thank you.

I feel pretty much the same way, i just dislike the way that the manufacturers come and go as they please, they have no love of the sport per sé and don't hesitate to drop F1 in the mire. I don't believe they should be allowed to participate in groups like FOTA purely because they see the sport as a business tool and are not interested in the inherent well being of F1 as a whole.

i understand your frustration twinkle_toes22, but appart from ferrari, the manufacturers are not directly involved in f1. they are like sponsors, they sign off the money to the race teams and they go racing with the aim of winning. the teams have as much passion for the sport as each other and have nothing to do with the manufacturers appart from depending on them for money to go racing so there is no need to be angry with them after all sponsors come and go more frequently than the manufacturers. if i was in a race team i would go after coka cola as a sponser because i doubt they will ever pull out.

fiat makes and sells lots of afforbable cars to raise the money for ferrari to go racing. without fiat ferrari would be as competitive as or less so than williams.

i think the big guns in f1 didn't enjoy being threatened with a breakaway series so they're taking action to make sure it doesn't happen again. if they get enough practice at threatening the status quo, they may actually become good enough at it to succeed at breaking away.

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

you may be right but i think the manufacturers did contribute tremencously to the spectacle. honda made the brawn story possible after all and don't forget that only one car at a time can win, i think the manufacturers are in f1 to promote their core business, road cars. 

seriously do you think thats acceptable? That the worlds so called pinnacle of motorsport, so advanced and so technologically superior and so competetive is full of teams who dont care whether they win or not? That, to them, as long as they publicise their products it doesnt matter whether they are succesful on the track, a few podiums every now and then and maybe if theyre lucky the odd win?

I'm not having a go at you, i'm genuinely interested in why people think the manufacturers are so good for F1. I think its a farce, there are teams on the grid who desperately want to win and dont have half the money of the the car companies, why should they be prevented from doing so by companies with more money than sense.

I'd rather have a grid full of teams who love racing, love motorsport and want to win, not flog 'aspirational, lifestyle statement' pieces of tin.

The truth is the manufacturers need, not only want, to win.

I worked in the motor industry, with a Jaguar dealership, during the time Jaguar, backed by Ford, were in F1.  Ford wanted to create a "British Ferrari" with seas of green in the grandstands instead of red,  They also wanted to use F1 as a global advertising platform for their new luxury car brand.  F1 is actually a very cost effective way of advertising if you look at the number of people around the world watching.  The problem starts when you are not winning!

Imagine a prospective Jaguar customer seeing the Jaguar F1 car being beaten by a Renault!  No disrespect to Renault, I have owned five in the past and my wife has a new one on order.  It is even worse if you are advertising to the world that you want them to buy the car that came last.  The old cliche that there is no bad publicity just doesn't work in the motor trade.  Those on here old enough will remember what happened to Lancia in the UK!

F1 will survive with or without the manufacturers.  It has done so many times before.  I am sure Ferrari will still be there as although they have been owned by FIAT for a long time the reason Ferrari started to build road cars was to pay for racing - not the other way round.  And the Italian people just wouldn't stand for it if there was no Ferrari in F1.

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

Indeed.

We need to remember that the Manufacturers involvement simply there to sell cars. Toyota have spent billions on making the company look foolish.

Racing needs to left to Racers such as Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis and Sir Frank. The innovative entrepreneurs whose passion it is to go racing - and win.

The place for the manufacturers is in the engineering department, this way they can continue to gain exposure by marketing their success on the track for a fraction of the cost on running the team.

Renault, Honda, BMW have designed and rand probably the most powerful engines of all time and I sincerely hope they continue to do so.

r1_racing:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

Indeed.

We need to remember that the Manufacturers involvement simply there to sell cars. Toyota have spent billions on making the company look foolish.

Racing needs to left to Racers such as Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis and Sir Frank. The innovative entrepreneurs whose passion it is to go racing - and win.

The place for the manufacturers is in the engineering department, this way they can continue to gain exposure by marketing their success on the track for a fraction of the cost on running the team.

Renault, Honda, BMW have designed and rand probably the most powerful engines of all time and I sincerely hope they continue to do so.

 

Totally agree. It's great to see the different engine manufactures there, but would it really be such a great loss if they were not? I'm just thinking of the Cosworth DFV which was run by so many teams for many years, and during that period we had some of the closest most competetive racing ever.

The trouble with manufacturer teams is exactly what we are seeing now. During an economic boom they ae happy to invest spare cash but come a downturn they are like rats leaving the sinking ship.

the manufacturers are the ones who drove the cost of racing up,than they complain about budget caps,than they leave because f1 is to expensive for them,fota is looking bad right now,if renault leaves it will be interesting to see what  happens next

r1_racing:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

Indeed.

We need to remember that the Manufacturers involvement simply there to sell cars. Toyota have spent billions on making the company look foolish.

Racing needs to left to Racers such as Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis and Sir Frank. The innovative entrepreneurs whose passion it is to go racing - and win.

The place for the manufacturers is in the engineering department, this way they can continue to gain exposure by marketing their success on the track for a fraction of the cost on running the team.

Renault, Honda, BMW have designed and rand probably the most powerful engines of all time and I sincerely hope they continue to do so.

It's good to see the manufacturers voting with their dollars... the FIA is becoming more and more discredited by the second...

The spectators should take note, and do the same by not attending any future events... just watch it on tv for free, without contributing a penny to the mop...

Its high time the FIA got a loud and clear message on having to change, regardless of casualties such as the mop and charlie withering etc...

The whole thing is avoidable, if the FIA were doing there job properly..

RaggedEdge:

It's good to see the manufacturers voting with their dollars... the FIA is becoming more and more discredited by the second...

The spectators should take note, and do the same by not attending any future events... just watch it on tv for free, without contributing a penny to the mop...

Its high time the FIA got a loud and clear message on having to change, regardless of casualties such as the mop and charlie withering etc...

The whole thing is avoidable, if the FIA were doing there job properly..

Not unless you're watching without a licence - naughty, naughty!

Even when it was ITV you still paid as the cost of things you buy includes the advertising.

RaggedEdge:

It's good to see the manufacturers voting with their dollars... the FIA is becoming more and more discredited by the second...

The spectators should take note, and do the same by not attending any future events... just watch it on tv for free, without contributing a penny to the mop...

Its high time the FIA got a loud and clear message on having to change, regardless of casualties such as the mop and charlie withering etc...

The whole thing is avoidable, if the FIA were doing there job properly..

Not unless you're watching without a licence - naughty, naughty!

Even when it was ITV you still paid as the cost of things you buy includes the advertising.

franger:

RaggedEdge:

It's good to see the manufacturers voting with their dollars... the FIA is becoming more and more discredited by the second...

The spectators should take note, and do the same by not attending any future events... just watch it on tv for free, without contributing a penny to the mop...

Its high time the FIA got a loud and clear message on having to change, regardless of casualties such as the mop and charlie withering etc...

The whole thing is avoidable, if the FIA were doing there job properly..

Not unless you're watching without a licence - naughty, naughty!

Even when it was ITV you still paid as the cost of things you buy includes the advertising.

I don't think Canadians are taken for a ride in Canada and forced to pay for a TV fee?

Must say Ron and Flavio have been ousted out of F1, but the likes of Toyato have wasted their chances in F1 and I think their drivers part let them down. They started of the season with the double diffuser (which proves the FIA gave them a chance) and blew it, goes to show if unique driverslike Kobayashi were in the driving seat early, maybe their results and profts would have looked a little more beefy. A team needs a driver who will push for upgrades, improvements and is prepared to get in the seat to feed back much more data for survival.

There's an interesting article on this topic, on F1SA, "Toyota Corporation withdrawal fallout signals new era for Formula 1"

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18850&Itemid=219

Niki Lauda says that F1 at the moment is like a sauna, with the unnecessary ballast being sweated out, amd afterwards there is a new start.  Williams' chief executive Adam Parr says a new era in F1 is dawning.  He said perhaps this is the end of a decade of manufacturer dominance and we will now see over the next decade a sport much more like the 1990s.

pedekay:

There's an interesting article on this topic, on F1SA, "Toyota Corporation withdrawal fallout signals new era for Formula 1"

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18850&Itemid=219

 

Niki Lauda says that F1 at the moment is like a sauna, with the unnecessary ballast being sweated out, amd afterwards there is a new start.  Williams' chief executive Adam Parr says a new era in F1 is dawning.  He said perhaps this is the end of a decade of manufacturer dominance and we will now see over the next decade a sport much more like the 1990s.

 

I think Lauda and Parr could well be correct. There's a new era coming and it could be one of the best in the history of F1, less manufacturer meddling, more and better racing, we now have 4 world champs on the grid and drivers like massa, vettel, rosberg and webber lining up to challenge, with some young new blood coming through and the current teams closer together than ever the next couple of years could see the begining of something really special. F1 is cyclical and we're coming out of a period of ferrari dominance which wasnt particulary good for the sport as a whole. Really all the manufacturers did was drive up budgets whilst failing miserably to have any major impact in terms of success.

fingers crossed