RaggedEdge:

justrace:

RaggedEdge:

[All of your points assume team orders were not executed...

If you factor in team orders, it perfectly explains why a lack of qualifying pace does not direcly correlate to race results.

Well, team orders are one reason to explain different results in the race than in qualifying. But there are many more reasons which explain the same difference, so one have to prove why it would be qualifying and not different fuel load, to name one of the many reasons. Just assuming team orders is not sufficient. 

Even if you include fuel loads, Massa's qualifying pace is better, therefore it reinforces the idea of team orders, and Massa's own statement on team orders all rings true.

...and Heikki's right front wheel gave team orders to his left front to deflate so the safety car would be deployed and Hamilton would be able to catch up to the disappearing Ferrari's.

Give up this 'Team Orders' delusion. 

No, that means nothing, and I said fuel loads are just one example, there are many other factors that need to be considered. Not all will apply in each race, and that is true for all those reasons, inlcuding team orders. Just because something was the case on one occasion does not mean that the same is true on another occasion.

In the last race Massa was lighter and was still beaten by Raikkonen, so that shows that you cannot transform explanations from one race to another. And even if it was true that Massa is quicker in single laps, it's the race that counts and Massa has so far not been consistent enough. So saying that the difference in qualifying and race is explained by team orders is just naive. If that was the case we would not need a race at all and just have the qualifying.

Anyway, I have no problem with team orders if it benefits the team result. It is a team sport after all.

RaggedEdge:

Even if you include fuel loads, Massa's qualifying pace is better, therefore it reinforces the idea of team orders, and Massa's own statement on team orders all rings true.

Or it reinforces the idea that Massa is very good in qualifying? Take year 2006 for example when he were driving with Michael:
His average qualifying position was 6th when Michael's were 4th.
His average finishing poisition was 4,437 when Michael's were 2,56.

So on average when compared with Michael  Felipe's pace were better in qualifying than in race. This reinforces the idea that Michael fared better than Felipe because of team orders..by your own logic.

 

 

I calculated also year 2005 when Massa were driving with Villeneuve at Sauber. Even then Massa's performance in qualifying (compared to Villeneuve) were relatively better than in race.

nicekim:

RaggedEdge:

Even if you include fuel loads, Massa's qualifying pace is better, therefore it reinforces the idea of team orders, and Massa's own statement on team orders all rings true.

Or it reinforces the idea that Massa is very good in qualifying? Take year 2006 for example when he were driving with Michael:
His average qualifying position was 6th when Michael's were 4th.
His average finishing poisition was 4,437 when Michael's were 2,56.

So on average when compared with Michael  Felipe's pace were better in qualifying than in race. This reinforces the idea that Michael fared better than Felipe because of team orders..by your own logic.

 

 

Michael was on average 0.5 seconds quicker then Massa... that explains why team orders made perfect sense.

With Kimi, the difference is marginally slower then Massa, which means team orders are not justified...Letting a slower driver through makes no sense...

RaggedEdge:

Michael was on average 0.5 seconds quicker then Massa... that explains why team orders made perfect sense.

With Kimi, the difference is marginally slower then Massa, which means team orders are not justified...Letting a slower driver through makes no sense...

Exactly it wouldn't make any sense so why they would do so? According to you Kimi is very likely to do mistakes like Massa so why would they do that?

First: Where do you base that 0.5s quiqker than Massa? They had big gap at early stages of the season, but Massa got better and better and he actually out paced Michael couple of times, for example Turkey and Brazil.

Second: Where do you base that Kimi is slower? I know you must have something else than qualifyings since Mass has been also relatively good in qualifying compared to Michael and Villeneuve.

nicekim:

RaggedEdge:

Michael was on average 0.5 seconds quicker then Massa... that explains why team orders made perfect sense.

With Kimi, the difference is marginally slower then Massa, which means team orders are not justified...Letting a slower driver through makes no sense...

Exactly it wouldn't make any sense so why they would do so? According to you Kimi is very likely to do mistakes like Massa so why would they do that?

First: Where do you base that 0.5s quiqker than Massa? They had big gap at early stages of the season, but Massa got better and better and he actually out paced Michael couple of times, for example Turkey and Brazil.

Second: Where do you base that Kimi is slower? I know you must have something else than qualifyings since Mass has been also relatively good in qualifying compared to Michael and Villeneuve.

When you say exactly, are you agreeing that when Massa is faster, it would make no sense to allow the slower Kimi through? Team orders it is then...

RaggedEdge:

When you say exactly, are you agreeing that when Massa is faster, it would make no sense to allow the slower Kimi through? Team orders it is then...

I'm just saying that if we assume that Kimi is slower than Massa in race pace [Your claim A] then it wouldn't make sense to use team orders to favor Kimi [Your claim B]. Basically I'm just saying that your two different theory don't seem to work together.

If you would read whole message trough first you wouldn't ask stupid questions. For  example this part of the message already basically answered your question:
"According to you Kimi is very likely to do mistakes like Massa so why would they do that?"

Also you shouldn't just skip those last two paragraphs. 

xlabratx:

People who think Massa got overtaken by Raikkonen in Brazil by just raw pace must be abit delerious and can't handle the truth. I think he should have won it and Massa being a nice guy and driver let him past as a sign of respect.

There's no way Massa let Raikkonen through as a sign of respect. The last thing Felipe would have wanted was to see Kimi win the championship as it would further highlight the fact that he is slower. I do believe he was slightly faster then kimi on that day but had to play second fiddle as there is no way he could face the team having cost them the WDC. He slowed down for the team, not Raikkonen.

motiman:

xlabratx:

People who think Massa got overtaken by Raikkonen in Brazil by just raw pace must be abit delerious and can't handle the truth. I think he should have won it and Massa being a nice guy and driver let him past as a sign of respect.

There's no way Massa let Raikkonen through as a sign of respect. The last thing Felipe would have wanted was to see Kimi win the championship as it would further highlight the fact that he is slower. I do believe he was slightly faster then kimi on that day but had to play second fiddle as there is no way he could face the team having cost them the WDC. He slowed down for the team, not Raikkonen.

Whether he slowed down for the team or kimi is neither here no there, he had orders to roll over for Kimi, but given the fact that he was not realstically in the title hunt and Hamilton would have won if he didnt....makes it alright I guess!

 

Think it will favour the Ferrari's 1-2.

Hamilton 3rd again.

Massa winner.

Kimi MIGHT have a bad weekend :P

I can hope right? :P

 

 

motiman:

xlabratx:

People who think Massa got overtaken by Raikkonen in Brazil by just raw pace must be abit delerious and can't handle the truth. I think he should have won it and Massa being a nice guy and driver let him past as a sign of respect.

There's no way Massa let Raikkonen through as a sign of respect. The last thing Felipe would have wanted was to see Kimi win the championship as it would further highlight the fact that he is slower. I do believe he was slightly faster then kimi on that day but had to play second fiddle as there is no way he could face the team having cost them the WDC. He slowed down for the team, not Raikkonen.

Not so sure about that, motiman.  Massa has the privilege of driving for Ferrari and wants to keep it.  If he hadn't supported Kimi (who unlike him had the chance of winning the WDC in Brazil) then I don't think he'd have kept his dream job for long!

RaggedEdge:

Michael was on average 0.5 seconds quicker then Massa... that explains why team orders made perfect sense.

With Kimi, the difference is marginally slower then Massa, which means team orders are not justified...Letting a slower driver through makes no sense...

Did it ever occur to you that Massa may have improved? Maybe the difference to Schumacher would now only be marginal as well.

Schumacher was not always the fastest, in particular in qualifying. But he for sure was one of the most consistent, and a team should always favour that driver. I think if you are only looking at speed you might be overlooking a number of other important reasons. A lesson McLaren should have taken away from last year. 

my predictions for istanbul : 1. Massa 2. Kimi 3......not sure

larkspur:

anametoremember:

RaggedEdge:

anametoremember:

RaggedEdge:

nicekim:

We are talking about track where Massa were on next level upwards even compared to M.Schumacher.

Is this statement in preperation for the event that Massa outclasses Kimi, yet again...?

I never recall any expectation of Massa dominating Schumacher at any track... this phenomina seems to have come about after Kimi failed to beat Massa on a fairly consistent basis...

RE are you a Gemini

What traits do Gemini's have that would relate to me?

I'm a Virgo, and this is what I found out about it:

"Virgo: You are blessed with an eye for detail that many would love to possess."

Well you remind of my brother who never gives up, restless, loves technology, needs more, aggrivates and teases peoples and enjoys doing it, likes a joke, not bothered; then can be bothered and doesnt listen to anyone else...does that sum you up?

Here is a paragraph I got of online about a Gemini from Kelly's stars signs.

Gemini's have amazing brains. They store data like you wouldn't believe. Lots of people think they talk garbage but this is because their minds move faster than their mouth. Gemini's are generous, affectionate and impulsive and hate hanging around. Boredom and relaxing frightens them. If they're not on the move they go mad. They are great with kids because they never grow up themselves. If you have a Gemini friend, life will never be dull. They love to be respected; this is pretty hard because they're so changeable. In fact, they are often prone to losing their train of thought mid sentence. They're practical jokers too, but can get aggravated if someone turns the trick on them.

I am not into stars signs, much (slightly more relgious than that) but you remind me of my brother ALOT. The only thing I would say is that you never lose your trail of thought lol that is one thing you are not guilty of.

 

Yes, he's like a dog with a bone!

Or maybe just an ill mannered dog...