I think the 5% bio fuel initiative mirrors the current EU legislation for all road fuel (can't remember the timeline). Nobody actually knows whether bio-fuels are less polluting than oil because there are so many constantly parameters in making the calculation. The best you can say is that it is a close call and the implications for land-use are worrying. However, it does make us less dependant on oil-producing countries and it also partially negates the diminishing oil resource base (the cost of which increases as it gets scarcer/more difficult to recover).

Nobody is saying that bio-fuels are the ultimate answer to the world's energy problems but it could be an important transistional step. For what it's worth, I think cleanly produced (or less polluting) electricity will be the ultimate answer for road transport...

ZakspeedF1:

I think the 5% bio fuel initiative mirrors the current EU legislation for all road fuel (can't remember the timeline). Nobody actually knows whether bio-fuels are less polluting than oil because there are so many constantly parameters in making the calculation. The best you can say is that it is a close call and the implications for land-use are worrying. However, it does make us less dependant on oil-producing countries and it also partially negates the diminishing oil resource base (the cost of which increases as it gets scarcer/more difficult to recover).

Nobody is saying that bio-fuels are the ultimate answer to the world's energy problems but it could be an important transistional step. For what it's worth, I think cleanly produced (or less polluting) electricity will be the ultimate answer for road transport...

but there is no energy problem in the world. not a single oil producing country has ever run out of oil and the number of oil producing countries is rising so how can there be energy problems in the world?

aveli666:

but there is no energy problem in the world. not a single oil producing country has ever run out of oil and the number of oil producing countries is rising so how can there be energy problems in the world?

There isn't a crisis now but growth in demand + a shrinking resource base = energy crisis at some time in the future. Notice that I didn't need to mention climate change! Surely you would agree that some time in the next 50 years we are going to have to find an alternative to petroleum?

ZakspeedF1:

aveli666:

but there is no energy problem in the world. not a single oil producing country has ever run out of oil and the number of oil producing countries is rising so how can there be energy problems in the world?

There isn't a crisis now but growth in demand + a shrinking resource base = energy crisis at some time in the future. Notice that I didn't need to mention climate change! Surely you would agree that some time in the next 50 years we are going to have to find an alternative to petroleum?

you are right about increase in demand for fossil fuels but i am not sure if there will be a fuel crisis in the future because fossil fuels are made from remains of organisms over millions of years and i don't think we can exhaust it in a 100 years. i know it has been well documented that the worlds natural oil will run out in the near future but they keep putting the dates further and further back as more oil deposits are discovered. secondly the coal deposits have been estimated to last well over 400 years.

so far i cannot see or understand the evidence which suggest that crude oil will soon run out but it may run out. it is wise to investigate alternative ideas such as solar power stations but foolish to invest money in bio fuels and hydrogen fuel cells because we receive more than enough energy from the sun which is causing global warming. the same solar energy is converted into fossil fuels over millions of years so why not just convert solar energy into electricity and use it? a 100m wide band of solar cells around the equator will be enough to supply the worlds energy needs, we have the technology and resources to do it. the only problem is that it will mean many energy companies going out of business and difficult to decide ownership of the solar power station unless the electricity is offered free to the world. and who will fund it? we would watch electric f1 cars may be.

It is not a case of exhausting it, just of reachng a point where it becomes too expensive to extract. The thing about the so-called 'resource base' is that, yes, it has increased in recent decades but a lot of it is too expensive to extract. As the price increases, more of it will become economically viable but at an added premium to you and me but it will be less attractive to you and me.

http://www.mpch-mainz.mpg.de/~jesnow/MineralEcon/habil/estimate.html

Add to that the political dimesion i.e. oil-producing countries using supply as a political tool and it makes pefect sense to say that we are heading for a crisis if we don't find a viable alternative - which we will. I think the investment in bio-fuels and hydrogen is largely political. There are also lots of government/EU grants to be had if you choose to go down that route. However, as I said, I think electricity (possibly generated directly by solar energy as you say) will power the cars of the future

aveli666:

ZakspeedF1:

aveli666:

but there is no energy problem in the world. not a single oil producing country has ever run out of oil and the number of oil producing countries is rising so how can there be energy problems in the world?

There isn't a crisis now but growth in demand + a shrinking resource base = energy crisis at some time in the future. Notice that I didn't need to mention climate change! Surely you would agree that some time in the next 50 years we are going to have to find an alternative to petroleum?

you are right about increase in demand for fossil fuels but i am not sure if there will be a fuel crisis in the future because fossil fuels are made from remains of organisms over millions of years and i don't think we can exhaust it in a 100 years. i know it has been well documented that the worlds natural oil will run out in the near future but they keep putting the dates further and further back as more oil deposits are discovered. secondly the coal deposits have been estimated to last well over 400 years.

so far i cannot see or understand the evidence which suggest that crude oil will soon run out but it may run out. it is wise to investigate alternative ideas such as solar power stations but foolish to invest money in bio fuels and hydrogen fuel cells because we receive more than enough energy from the sun which is causing global warming. the same solar energy is converted into fossil fuels over millions of years so why not just convert solar energy into electricity and use it? a 100m wide band of solar cells around the equator will be enough to supply the worlds energy needs, we have the technology and resources to do it. the only problem is that it will mean many energy companies going out of business and difficult to decide ownership of the solar power station unless the electricity is offered free to the world. and who will fund it? we would watch electric f1 cars may be.

there is a rather large problem with oil supplies. There is a very good documentary called Crude Awakening: the oil crash, its probably on youtube somewhere. Or check this

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/  or wikipedia 'Peak Oil'

We reached peak oil in 2005 so its all downhill from here on in (sure it'll take a while) Solar energy is one very good answer but the problem is we do NOT have the technology to harvest it on the scale required and to move it around the earth, a conservative estimate of how long it will take to create that technology (30 years) is longer than the period we have before oil runs out - or more acurately - becoming non cost effective to extract. or will you be willing to pay $50 per gallon?

when oil was discovered in america they estimated that they had enough reserves to supply the world for 50 years minimum, they reached peak oil in the early 80s. The whole of american oil extraction now provides only 2% of their domestic needs. The USA is almost completely reliant on saudi arabia for its supplies of oil. A couple of years ago the middle eastern cartels where caught 'fiddling the figures' on their own oil reserves.

The problem is so big that people and even governments cannot even begin to perceive how it will effect their lives .. so, is it realistic that in our lifetime motorsport could actually cease to exist?

a cheery thought for everyone.

ZakspeedF1:

It is not a case of exhausting it, just of reachng a point where it becomes too expensive to extract. The thing about the so-called 'resource base' is that, yes, it has increased in recent decades but a lot of it is too expensive to extract. As the price increases, more of it will become economically viable but at an added premium to you and me but it will be less attractive to you and me.

http://www.mpch-mainz.mpg.de/~jesnow/MineralEcon/habil/estimate.html

Add to that the political dimesion i.e. oil-producing countries using supply as a political tool and it makes pefect sense to say that we are heading for a crisis if we don't find a viable alternative - which we will. I think the investment in bio-fuels and hydrogen is largely political. There are also lots of government/EU grants to be had if you choose to go down that route. However, as I said, I think electricity (possibly generated directly by solar energy as you say) will power the cars of the future

good post zakespeedf1, and thanks for the link. i agree with most of what you said but i am not convinced that the extraction of crude oil is becoming too expensive and the cost is going up because of it. reason i say this is because many countries produce oil now with varying cost of extraction and yet the price doesn't vary accordingly. i think the most expensive oil to extract is the north sea oil and coincidently it is the most expensive not because of the cost of extraction but because of the quality, low sulphur content. one country will not sell their oil at a higher price simple because it is costing another country more to extract their oil, or would it?

as i explained earlier. we are insignificant compared to the size of the earth and it's resources so very unlikely that we could exhaust the resources of the earth 9 i notice your comment on exhaustion / cost of extraction). if you take a look at the evolution of our atmosphere, you would notice that most of the atmospheric gases used to be carbon dioxide and over the years carbon dioxide has been converted into life form, leaving only 0.031% of the atmosphere as carbon dioxide so there is a lot more fossil fuel out there than we think.

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

ZakspeedF1:

aveli666:

but there is no energy problem in the world. not a single oil producing country has ever run out of oil and the number of oil producing countries is rising so how can there be energy problems in the world?

There isn't a crisis now but growth in demand + a shrinking resource base = energy crisis at some time in the future. Notice that I didn't need to mention climate change! Surely you would agree that some time in the next 50 years we are going to have to find an alternative to petroleum?

you are right about increase in demand for fossil fuels but i am not sure if there will be a fuel crisis in the future because fossil fuels are made from remains of organisms over millions of years and i don't think we can exhaust it in a 100 years. i know it has been well documented that the worlds natural oil will run out in the near future but they keep putting the dates further and further back as more oil deposits are discovered. secondly the coal deposits have been estimated to last well over 400 years.

so far i cannot see or understand the evidence which suggest that crude oil will soon run out but it may run out. it is wise to investigate alternative ideas such as solar power stations but foolish to invest money in bio fuels and hydrogen fuel cells because we receive more than enough energy from the sun which is causing global warming. the same solar energy is converted into fossil fuels over millions of years so why not just convert solar energy into electricity and use it? a 100m wide band of solar cells around the equator will be enough to supply the worlds energy needs, we have the technology and resources to do it. the only problem is that it will mean many energy companies going out of business and difficult to decide ownership of the solar power station unless the electricity is offered free to the world. and who will fund it? we would watch electric f1 cars may be.

there is a rather large problem with oil supplies. There is a very good documentary called Crude Awakening: the oil crash, its probably on youtube somewhere. Or check this

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/  or wikipedia 'Peak Oil'

We reached peak oil in 2005 so its all downhill from here on in (sure it'll take a while) Solar energy is one very good answer but the problem is we do NOT have the technology to harvest it on the scale required and to move it around the earth, a conservative estimate of how long it will take to create that technology (30 years) is longer than the period we have before oil runs out - or more acurately - becoming non cost effective to extract. or will you be willing to pay $50 per gallon?

when oil was discovered in america they estimated that they had enough reserves to supply the world for 50 years minimum, they reached peak oil in the early 80s. The whole of american oil extraction now provides only 2% of their domestic needs. The USA is almost completely reliant on saudi arabia for its supplies of oil. A couple of years ago the middle eastern cartels where caught 'fiddling the figures' on their own oil reserves.

The problem is so big that people and even governments cannot even begin to perceive how it will effect their lives .. so, is it realistic that in our lifetime motorsport could actually cease to exist?

a cheery thought for everyone.

since 2005 there has been many discoveries of oil deposits in countries which didn't produce oil previously. i do not think oil is running out at an alarming rate. if it was then the world leaders would rally around to find a solution. when there was an out break of foot and mouth disease, mad cow disease and bird flu, we saw what actions were taken world wide to deal with them and such out breaks are a lot less serious than the world running out of crude oil.

our government recently introduced a scheme to buy old cars for £2000 if the owner bought a brand new car with the money, knowing full well that it cost so much more energy to build a brand new car than to keep the old one going. the world is not running short of crude oil.

peak oil is maximum production rate and it is unscientific to say that we have reached peak oil production when we don't know if better extraction technologies will be developed.

there are too many people out there trying to make things up to create panic with the sole intention of making a profit. there isn't a machine which will allow us to look directly at the world's crude oil reserves, just liker we can look at the earth on google earth so those people get away with it all. there are so many out there claiming that a huge planet is on course to crash into the earth, others claim that the salinity of the sea is changing so much that the golfstream (ocean current) would switch off bringing about severe freezing in the world.

it is all nonsense. a great french scientist by the name chatallier said that a closed equilibrium system would change in a way to opose any change in the equilibrium. this principle is widely used to accurately predict effects of changes in conditions to equilibrium systems. everything on earth has always been on earth nothing has come from outside the earth and nothing has left the earth and yet some people claim that humans will destroy the earth with our consumerism. it is all nonsense.

Quote  aveli666  'isle of white is a tiny island between northern ireland and england'

Thats the last time I buy a SatNav from the local Chavs. It was trying to send me towards Southampton!!!!

kelrad:

Quote  aveli666  'isle of white is a tiny island between northern ireland and england'

Thats the last time I buy a SatNav from the local Chavs. It was trying to send me towards Southampton!!!!

Rofl !!, oh and, bejaysus

kelrad:

Quote  aveli666  'isle of white is a tiny island between northern ireland and england'

Thats the last time I buy a SatNav from the local Chavs. It was trying to send me towards Southampton!!!!

use google earth on your pc. 

aveli666:

kelrad:

Quote  aveli666  'isle of white is a tiny island between northern ireland and england'

Thats the last time I buy a SatNav from the local Chavs. It was trying to send me towards Southampton!!!!

use google earth on your pc. 

Its a pity you didn't use Google Earth, you might have known the Isle Of Wight is nowhere near Ireland.

aveli666:

kelrad:

Quote  aveli666  'isle of white is a tiny island between northern ireland and england'

Thats the last time I buy a SatNav from the local Chavs. It was trying to send me towards Southampton!!!!

use google earth on your pc. 

Ah, just did. Apparently it's an island off the south coast of England!!

stigga:

aveli666:

kelrad:

Quote  aveli666  'isle of white is a tiny island between northern ireland and england'

Thats the last time I buy a SatNav from the local Chavs. It was trying to send me towards Southampton!!!!

use google earth on your pc. 

 

Its a pity you didn't use Google Earth, you might have known the Isle Of Wight is nowhere near Ireland.

ok i meant isle of man.