philbean:

 

Wow.. if that bit about being stranded in the hotel is true, then fair play to AC for keeping his gob shut until after the tour. What a pro!

Never been what you'd call a Lance fan but always had respect and admiration for him as an awesome cyclist. Lost most of that this tour. As has been mentioned before, it wasn't so much what LA said over the 3 weeks as what he didn't say.. and his body language.

Quite pathetic really.

Hopefully Alberto will thrash him again next year on different teams.

yes, its was his body language and forked tongue

 

yah to Contrador creaming Lance next year, and Wiggins, and the Schleck brothers

Good grief. So one story from one Spanish newspaper (El Comercio Digital) and an anonymous person on a forum who said on previous thread that he/she hasn't even been near the TdF claims that they had heard from an "impeccable" source so the "story" is true and therefore you are supposed to believe it. No word from Contador or Boonen to corroborate the story. Perhaps it was Armstrong and Bruyneel who sneakingly changed the tapes on the podium presentation, swapping the Spanish national anthem for the Danish one. Evil people, getting at the greatest Tdf cyclist that is Alberto Contador. I have it from an "impeccable" source so it must be true. Jeez.

OK, let's change the burden of proof to showing us where Armstrong actually supported Contador.

 I know that's not how this started but let's do it anyway.

 I completely respect your right to disagree with this but aside from dragging Contador here, proving to you that it's him logging in and having him post his entire story I can't see much way out of this.

If we're talking about loyalty to teammates and opponents, even George Hincapie - long-time faithful companion - wasn't too enamoured with Armstrong's tactics. 

 There's no winning this and I know that but come on! Are you seriously telling me that you believe Armstrong was the faithful and supportive team-mate in this situation?

Firstly, I wouldn't want to get an entire story off a forum and certainly don't expect Contador to log in (although that would be a coup for ITV). But most people have made their minds up on the basis of... not liking Armstrong.

I don't believe Armstrong was a faithful and supportive team-mate to Contador either. Neither do I think Contador was squeaky clean either. What is clear is that there was a personality clash between Armstrong and Contador and a grapple for power within the team. The fact is they have been a bad as each other.

For every comment Armstrong has made, you can find a contradiction from Contador and vice versa, especially when Armstrong and Bruyneel had admitted during the tour that there were tensions within Astana.

Contador comes out during the tour and makes statements like "I don't feel any tension in the team. I don't feel alone - I have important people around me... It's a subject which is starting to tire me a bit, it's too repetitive. The situation of the team is normal, like for any other rider in any other team on the race. We eat together at the table and are together on the bus. Often the tension seems higher from the outside than it really is."

Another one:
"Of course I'm happy to have beaten Lance, but I'm also happy to have beaten all my other rivals. He was my idol, but dropping him today wasn't particularly important. He was like any other competitor."

Then after the tour, his tone changes, "My relationship with Lance is non-existent, zero. Even if he is a great champion, I have never had admiration for him and I never will,"

Hardly surprising Armstrong hit back at him if you ask me. ***-for-tat.

alpe d'huez:

Firstly, I wouldn't want to get an entire story off a forum and certainly don't expect Contador to log in (although that would be a coup for ITV). But most people have made their minds up on the basis of... not liking Armstrong.

I don't believe Armstrong was a faithful and supportive team-mate to Contador either. Neither do I think Contador was squeaky clean either. What is clear is that there was a personality clash between Armstrong and Contador and a grapple for power within the team. The fact is they have been a bad as each other.

For every comment Armstrong has made, you can find a contradiction from Contador and vice versa, especially when Armstrong and Bruyneel had admitted during the tour that there were tensions within Astana.

Contador comes out during the tour and makes statements like "I don't feel any tension in the team. I don't feel alone - I have important people around me... It's a subject which is starting to tire me a bit, it's too repetitive. The situation of the team is normal, like for any other rider in any other team on the race. We eat together at the table and are together on the bus. Often the tension seems higher from the outside than it really is."

Another one:
"Of course I'm happy to have beaten Lance, but I'm also happy to have beaten all my other rivals. He was my idol, but dropping him today wasn't particularly important. He was like any other competitor."

Then after the tour, his tone changes, "My relationship with Lance is non-existent, zero. Even if he is a great champion, I have never had admiration for him and I never will,"

Hardly surprising Armstrong hit back at him if you ask me. ***-for-tat.

I never made up my mind on the basis of....not liking Armstrong.

I made up my mind on the basis of.....always liking Armstrong, but now having been in a situation (as explained in my earlier post) to see what other people have noted before me, such as my Danish fiance.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the 3 Contadors quotes you provide seem to provide evidence that he has been more gracious than Armstrong, and have written all over them nothing but "i dont want to be drawn into nor defined by the Armstrong gameplay.

I mean, the first quote he is saying that there is no problem (with armstrong or within the Team)!!!

The second he even calls rtmstrong his idol, but simply puts him into the perpective (quite naturally) of any rider that he aims to beat

The third, like you say, was AFTER the tour.Even you admit this is a "change of tone", impying the tone beforehand was fine. The point being he maintained his public and Team professionalism during the tour, despite the provocations, now once the tour is over, he has finally given way to being goaded....anyone  would, really. 

Cannot see how you see these quotes as evidence that Contador has 'done an Armstrong himself'

It wasn't personally aimed at you. People keep talking about "sniping", "forked tongues" "toxic texans" without actually quoting anything Armstrong said. So what did Armstrong say during the Tour? Where were the provocations? What was Armstrong doing that made him less "gracious" than Contador? Because he mentioned Contador for dropping Kloden or criticised Contador for attacking on stage 7. Because Armstrong rode off in a split in stage 3. Because he announced the formation of Team Radio Shack during the Tour? Because he rode a garish Damien Hirst decorated Trek bike on the final stage that outshone Contador's black Trek bike? Because, naturally, there was more media interest in Armstrong's return to the Tour de France than Contador's overall victory? Because Armstrong skipped an Astana team party at the end of the Tour, instead deciding to go out with representatives of Radio Shack? I have not read or seen a quote or soundbite from Armstrong during the weeks of the tour that could be percieved as a provocation or behaving less graciously than Contador.

The reason for the quotes is that both riders were saying the same thing during the tour, hence why I say Contador is/has been as bad as Armstrong. They did their best to cover up any rivalry or divisions (if there was any that serious) within Astana and get on with the racing. And the last few days Armstrong was, understandably, simply responded. For example a near identical response from Armstrong,

"There has been a lot of drama about Alberto and me, especially in the media, but at the end of the day we all sit around the table, around the teammates, and the last thing we can do is to lose the Tour. I'm gonna do my best and be a solid teammate."

It was Contador who had the final say that re-ignited something that had died down.

If you really think that Armstrong was the evil old man who came back to the Tour de France to dethrone Contador in an Astana coup d'etat that would put some general in a banana republic to shame based on the media stirring up the rivalry, then so be it.

I've just re-read all the way down this 3-page thread and completely agree with the following posters:

  impartial  July 23: I also have to say that Contadors beheaviour with regard to Andy and Frank Schleck approaching the finish line was "very sportsman like" allowing them to take the stage, I am sure Armstrong would have had no hesitation (if he were in the same position) of running for the line to grab the glory

  jmw238  July 24: If you have ever watched Armstrong's tactics in the Tours he has won, you'll recognise Contadors action on that climb to be exactly as Armstrong has always done - allows his rivals to attack, shelling out anyone not able to stay with them, and then attacks them as the summit approaches with such confidence and ferocity that they can't stay with him. Contrador tried exactly that but could'nt quite shake the Schlecks.

It's sour grapes from Armstrong who doesn't seem to want to accept that Contrador is better than him, then in interviews uses that ridiculous tactic of thinly veiled criticism.

goldenduck July 25:   Lance has let the mask slip more than enough times in recent months to show us that he still wants to the top dog.

labiche July 26: Basically he couldn't handle that he thought this was not going to plan - clearly LA assumed this was going to be the Armstrong love-in with Astana towing the Livestrong line, everyone doing his bidding as he demanded in years gone by and allowing him to win with ease..........Contador is one of the greatest champions of all time.

beebsy July 27:   We know he's a great TdF cyclist and we appreciate he has overcome huge obstacles. We know he is a dedicated and intelligent rider. But there is simply no getting away from the fact that he hijacked an entire team and just expected everyone to kowtow to him

  krusewalker  July 28:  You have to give AC credence for remaining professional and focussed throughout the tour and waiting until it was finished for making comment about LA's behaviour.

Considering the amount of provocation, his late reaction shows great restraint really - pity you cant say the same for LA - his behaviour and arrogance has detracted from my many years of ardent respect for the man

beebsy's entire post, number 862137,  on July 28

beebsy's entire post, number 862233 , on July 28

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FWIW, I've always been an Armstrong fan up until now. I was full of admiration for him for what he's been through and what he's achieved. This despite some scorn from cycling buddies who know far more TdF history than I do - I only started following it in earnest 5 years ago. Nevertheless, despite their rolled-eyes at my support for him, I was glad  to see him back in the saddle again this year.

 

Now, like others here, I think differently. It seems to me that the ONLY reason he's returned to professional cycling and specifically the Tour de France, is to get himself on the No.1 spot of the Yellow Jersey podium in Paris again. That he achieved No. 3 spot this year is, yes, a marvellous achievement but neverless his lack of grace on that day was visible and frankly, shameful IMO.

He's not a team player like his current and ex-co-riders Leipheimer and Hincapie for instance. (And he has a dammed nerve "telling" Contador that "there's no I in the word Team".)  LA doesn't do team unless it's in complete gut-busting support of The Mission, which is to get Armstrong another TdF victory, to put his massive ego up there yet again.

Does Armstrong do the water-carrying job, for instance, which we see other riders doing day after day? I would be astonished if he condescended to that vital role.  Yet someone has to go back to the car, load up with 10 bottles and then ride forwards again, weaving in and out of the peleton going at 30 mph and probably uphill too.

 

Sure,  it takes a completely driven personality to achieve what he's achieved and I recognise that. But I'm not that impressed at his lack of grace when a younger, fitter, co-team-member won.

 

It takes more than being a hard man at one particular athletic skill to make a decent warm person and role-model for young aspiring riders IMHO. I'm even somewhat leery now of his promulgation of Livestrong (the insignia for which he put on for camera at every single opportunity). It seems more like a banner to wave for the press, than real empathy for cancer-sufferers. I'm uneasy about Livestrong, though it grieves me to say that. The world don't need another cancer charity, does it? MacMillan Nurses, for instance, do stunningly good work (I speak from experience) without some egotist on their masthead.

So how generous is Lance Armstrong? Can I suggest that all sceptics take a look at Page 39 of the current Issue (Summer 2009) of Cycling Plus. This is the real Lance Armstrong, when there are no cameras, away from his bike, in his own time and when someone was in need. This is the side that's not normally seen, but is rather more important than what is said in the heat of competition.

novosibirsk:

It takes more than being a hard man at one particular athletic skill to make a decent warm person and role-model for young aspiring riders IMHO. I'm even somewhat leery now of his promulgation of Livestrong (the insignia for which he put on for camera at every single opportunity). It seems more like a banner to wave for the press, than real empathy for cancer-sufferers. I'm uneasy about Livestrong, though it grieves me to say that. The world don't need another cancer charity, does it? MacMillan Nurses, for instance, do stunningly good work (I speak from experience) without some egotist on their masthead.

Ridiculous statement. MacMillan Nurses do stunningly good work, along with Marie Curie Cancer Care, Cancer Research UK (the biggest cancer charity outside the US) and numerous other charities ... in the UK. Livestrong/Lance Armstrong Foundation is an American-based charity with a far bigger global reach because of the person who set it up. It appears to be the only cancer charity with a big enough international presence to be able to do that. However much you dislike Armstrong, you can't bemoan a cancer charity that is able to spread its message worldwide, even if it is partly through a sport and in-your-face type promotion.

It has been announced this morning that Sir Bobby Robson died of cancer. Do you begrudge him of setting up his own charity and a cancer research centre in Newcastle as well because the world doesn't need another cancer charity?

I'm incredulous at the amount of ill-informed sniping at Armstrong in this thread.  If you don't like him, fine.  But show some respect, for Heaven's sake!

People clearly seem to have an axe to grind and appear also to be rather frustrated that they cannot find any quotes or other evidence to back up their silly claims.

LA showed great humility in defeat in all the interviews I saw and read during the race, repeatedly stating that Contador was "stronger" etc.

The suggestion that he "blamed everyone else" simply does not stand up.  He actually said on TV that the race was won and lost on individual performances, in the time-trials and and in the final sectors of mountain stages.  That is an explicit recognition of his own comparitive failure (if losing to Contador and Schleck can sensibly be called that).

The "generosity" of AC in gifting a stage win to Schleck improbable at best - almost certainly he cut a deal with the brothers (with whom he seemed to be engrossed in discussion) that he would not race them.  This was a tactical trade, exchanging a win that for Contador would have meaningless (no time bonuses) for a guarantee of no time deficit for him as an isolated Astana rider.  LA mentions at length his respect for racing traditions in his book, particularly the one about not taking unnecessary stage wins from one's competitors.  He actually got into a controversy for this reason once when he offended the great Marco Pantani by "letting" him take a stage.

This is just my opinion, but Contador has shown huge shortcomings in the magnanimity and humility that is expected of a champion, lamentably unable to offer even a platitude of public praise for either his rivals, management or team-mates.  In a lesser team than Astana, he would not have had half as much of an edge over Andy Schleck. To be a frustrated and upset bad loser is one thing.  A bad winner shows character weakness in my book. I doubt his mouthing off has made him feel any better at all, and I'm sure it has made him look like a dip-stick to many.

Alberto is a great rider - he may well become a legend in the fullness of time.  Like him for his talent, not for his personality - he is no angel and he's no victim either.

The denigration of Armstrong's cycling (if Merckx is a fan, why the hell aren't you?) or personality (horses for courses) is one thing, but for anyone to try to make a mockery of the work he has done for cancer (increasing awareness, providing support for the sick, and funding research) is simply shameful.  He's been an inspiration to a huge number of people who would otherwise have felt much more alone facing serious illness.  Think about Johnny Hartson and thousands of others like him next time you're scratching your balls.

On the positive side, the prospect of a long Schleck v. Contador rivalry (with some LA / Radioshack interference) is fantastic.  Vive le tour!

beebsy, I might be a US citizen, but I have lived in England off and on since 1970 and permanently in St Albans for 25 years. I have followed the Tour since I was teenager and was a fan of Eddy Merckx. I have got quite used to the US being slagged off for all the problems in the world.

David - likewise. I honestly do understand where you're coming from and no offense intended. Are we cool?

I am certainly not going to *** off Armstrong's efforts with cancer awareness. I work in a hospice and believe me, I would rather people knew about cancer and learnt about it through Armstrong than ended up in my place of work dying of an unnecessarily undetected cancer at 36.

Look. I admire Armstrong. He's a fantastic athlete. He's also a very intelligent man and far too smart to openly attack his team leader. He plays the game and he does it very well. Contador does not have the maturity to do so yet. Still, as I said before, go back and look at Armstrong's interviews. He actually flinches if it looks like he's even going to mention Contador's name. 

alpe (may I call you "alpe"?) - I take all your points but:

"Because Armstrong skipped an Astana team party at the end of the Tour, instead deciding to go out with representatives of Radio Shack?"

Come on! Don't you think that maybe - just maybe - this was a bit unsportsmanlike? Hardly a team player in this instance, eh?

Armstrong is always going to divide opinion. Those who don't like him are going to find him self-centered. The fans are going to say his self-centredness is extreme focus and what makes him so brilliant. You get my drift?

Either way, I certainly don't have to like him because Mercx does!

Drops:

"So how generous is Lance Armstrong? Can I suggest that all sceptics take a look at Page 39 of the current Issue (Summer 2009) of Cycling Plus. This is the real Lance Armstrong, when there are no cameras, away from his bike, in his own time and when someone was in need. This is the side that's not normally seen, but is rather more important than what is said in the heat of competition."

Sorry to be a pedant but I assume this is a pic or story of Armstrong. And published in a magazine? I know he does good work and I have no problem with him publicising it. He knows that anything he does is going to get attention - he's a very famous man and he uses that - on the whole - for very good reasons. He doesn't do low profile and if he didn't want his work to be known, he would make sure it wasn't. Not a dig, honest.

It would just be a lot easier if everyone kept agreeing with everything I said. Seriously. You know it makes sense. I am the voice of reason. 

 

 

beebsy, We is cool! Am I mistaken, or has nobody here mentioned that Armstrong broke his collarbone late in March, then rode in Italy afterwards, coming in 12th or 16th (don't remember)? Not bad for an old geezer.

We had a Radio Shack in St Albans, but it closed. And they weren't called Radio Shack in England. What were/are they called ?

davidmcn:

beebsy, We is cool! Am I mistaken, or has nobody here mentioned that Armstrong broke his collarbone late in March, then rode in Italy afterwards, coming in 12th or 16th (don't remember)? Not bad for an old geezer.

We had a Radio Shack in St Albans, but it closed. And they weren't called Radio Shack in England. What were/are they called ?

hello davidmcn

 i live 15 mins from you.

 you dont have anything to do with st albans striders, do you? 

beebsy:

"Because Armstrong skipped an Astana team party at the end of the Tour, instead deciding to go out with representatives of Radio Shack?"

Come on! Don't you think that maybe - just maybe - this was a bit unsportsmanlike? Hardly a team player in this instance, eh?

That was probably quite stupid, and given the press coverage alleging spat with Contador and divisions within Astana, then yes he should have gone to show that there was some unity.