Susanna what the BNP wants is neither here nor there because they'll not get much power.

Herne, exactly my point - Straw had to become middle class to get a decent salary.  And just who decides what "ability" is and why some ability is valued more than others - it's all rather subjective.  There are a vast array of jobs and all need doing.  Just because someone is highly qualified or has some overhyped talent does not mean they should get more in their pay packet imo.  Pay should be determined by how much effort is put into the job not by the type of job done.  Someone who spends as much time as possible using their computer to do anything but work should get less pay than a labourer who spends 8 hours doing heavy manual work and likewise a labourer who spends as much time as possible having brews and cigarette breaks should be paid less than someone who puts 100% effort into their oh so important higher paid job.

Re Nick Griffin's law degree - I note that Bonnie Greer made a point of stating that it was a II(ii) - as opposed to, say, a 1st.  Was that an attempt to belittle him perhaps else why mention what class of degree he got?

 

nah..you were right the first time.

If there is no class sytem in Australia why on earth do Australians want to come over here?

I'm not altogether sure about other countries lacking a class system - I have a feeling other countries have their fair share of snobs too - maybe not as many as here in the UK - but their fair share.

Re this idea of "choosing to wallow" - in what way can anyone choose how they feel? I can no more stop despising inequality and snobbery than others can stop themselves despising people who keep going on about it. Michael Caine was on the radio last night bemoaning the fact that his tax money goes to keep people unemployed - the man's wealthy beyond most people's dreams and he's still moaning. I think some of us are just natural-born whingers. One thing's for sure though ambition, wealth and luxury doesn't necessarily make people happy else why would wealthy people want to escape their apparently wonderful lives by taking drugs?

"Found a better song to sing Rita? No you found a different song to sing."

Compare Jack Straw to John Prescott - both working class backgrounds but John Prescott (for all his pretentions that "we're all middle class now" is obviously not (not really!). He might be living the middle class lifestyle but basically he still comes across as very working class. But who is more respected by the electorate? I would say Jack Straw. Why? Because he has the "right" image - he's slim, doesn't have an accent, isn't as honest and is most definitely not blunt. He is the typical working class turned middle class ideal and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him much less vote for him. Give us the genuine articles like the John Prescotts and the Nick Griffins any day of the week.

I'll take John Prescott before Jack Straw any day, although JP can be his own worst enemy.  For instance, his bias against independent schools borders on farcical. But being an honest man (and I do believe he was one of the more honest public servants) he doesn't deny that the education and benefits received from attending a top independent school are first class, nor can he bring himself to say that working class children should not accept scholarships or bursaries to attend these schools. Nor does he deny that children all have different abilities but his class prejudices are so strong that they distort his vision and its a real pity because imo he is worth ten Jack Straw's (or Tony Blairs)  He is against privilege (not money) just for the sake of it, and thats a pretty bad conceit.

rosiet2008:

If there is no class sytem in Australia why on earth do Australians want to come over here?

I'm not altogether sure about other countries lacking a class system - I have a feeling other countries have their fair share of snobs too - maybe not as many as here in the UK - but their fair share.

 

IMO Australia doesnt have a class system in so far as people dont care what your parents do or where you went to school (although top schools are held in high regard) or what sort of accent you have, but I wouldn't call it a classless society.  If you go to an eight for eight-thirty dinner party at a house round Sydney bay or in one of the leafy suburbs you're not likely to encounter a shop assistant or clerk from the sprawling masses of look alike bungalows running alongside the highway, and by the same token you're unlikely to meet many dentists or architects at a six oclock supper in one of the little bungalows (unless the dentist is visiting his/her parents and then he/she will still have the same accent and enjoy the same jokes as the parents, but the dentist will have more money) However if a plasterer or decorator or what ever, earns enough money to live in a leafy suburb, he takes on the leafy lifestyle and no one cares what he does for a living.   Just as a matter of interest, Australia has more one man businesses per capita than any other western country  -  Australians take pride in being their own boss.  And one thing I'd bet my last penny on, is that John Prescott would be a popular man in Australia and Jack Straw would be treated with scorn.

 

I'm not Australian but I've visited many times for months at a time.

"I'll take John Prescott before Jack Straw any day".  Wow something we actually agree on.  What is not mentioned in either of these men's careers though is that luck played as much a part as determination, ability or anything else.  In fact someone would say that John Prescott was Deputy PM not because of ability but because he was the token working class - the one person who would attract traditional working class votes. And the fact that John Prescott is, like Blair, Brown, etc still believe education is the key are doing the working class who are destined to stay working class a great disfavour. I'd recommend last week's  Guardian article by Lynsey Hanley headlined "equality not education is the key to individual transformation".

herne:

If you go to an eight for eight-thirty dinner party at a house round Sydney bay or in one of the leafy suburbs you're not likely to encounter a shop assistant or clerk from the sprawling masses of look alike bungalows running alongside the highway, and by the same token you're unlikely to meet many dentists or architects at a six oclock supper in one of the little bungalows (unless the dentist is visiting his/her parents and then he/she will still have the same accent and enjoy the same jokes as the parents, but the dentist will have more money) However if a plasterer or decorator or what ever, earns enough money to live in a leafy suburb, he takes on the leafy lifestyle and no one cares what he does for a living.

So they're not snooty about occupation but about how much money someone has?  Or maybe it's a case of east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet - after all what on earth would someone living in the lap of luxury and someone with barely enough money to pay the rent have to talk about - absolutely nothing.

p.s. I'm assuming you think John Prescott would be more welcome because he speaks his mind?

Interesting article on inequality at http://www.socialevils.org.uk/2008/04/09-povery-and-inequality

I think inverted snobbery is just as bad as the other type

susanna foxtrot:

I think inverted snobbery is just as bad as the other type

Which is why Neil Kinnock (bless his cotton socks) never stood a chance of getting elected as PM.  Too much hatred directed at the Tories.

oh XXXX that link doesn't work.  Have to click on back to home page and then inequality to get to the article.  Why?? that's the http address of the XXXXX article. 

Although, having said that, would inverted snobbery exist if there were no snobbery in the first place?   

Snobbery (disdain for and/or dislike of a culture) however is not necessarily the same as disapproving of inequality (of income, respect, perceived worthiness).  Someone from a low income may actually enjoy the high-brow just as someone from a high income may enjoy the low brow and both income groups may equally despise inequality.  The only people I personally truly despise are those who commit unwarranted violent crime (i.e. crimes not committed in self defence) and those who are intentionally cruel to animals (i.e. for sport or because they're just plain sadistic).

 

Raging: just think on - next time you need a Doctor or a Lawyer it might be wise of you not to insist on an "indigenous white english one"

Im afraid thats just the point we are making - not only is it almost impossible to insist on a white English doctor anymore but most of them are leaving this country because its not England anymore.  I dont want an ethnic minority consultant thats only lived here for 10 years - I want someone from my own race who can understand the nuances of my  language, ineundoes, body language, what im not saying meaning more than what i am saying, good communications at every level.  Many, many Indian people insist on having a GP from their culture it is not unusual and it is not abnormal.

The indiginous population have noticed how all the top jobs have gone to ethnic minorities but do you really see a change fo the better in this country - has crime fallen, has health figures shown an incline in achievements, have race relations improved, has the housing and job situation got better?  How can you equate immigration with a better standard of living when its gone down not up.