F1

Re: Next years cars this year?

twinkle_toes22 — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:56:59 GMT

wallace i:
redfrog:
twinkle_toes22:
does anyone actually know what the differences are going to be between this years and next years cars .. ive gotten all confused with all this argy bargy between max and the teams .. is refuelling banned or going to stay? anything else major going to change to prevent cars running 2010 (ish) spec motors towards the end of the season?
As I said to pdk, nothing is set in stone at the moment. The teams (FOTA) have said that they will not be running KERS next year. So that seems pretty much certain.
Refueling was banned in the 2010 regs and since the size of the fuel tank is fundemental to the design of the car, it is unlikely that decision will be reversed, given that most teams are already well into designing next years car. FOTA proposed the refueling ban as a cost cutting measure.
I have not heard of any other changes.

I'm sure FOTA have said they will be running under this years regs as set down by the WMSC in 2008 next season . I may be wrong and like you say it can change yet but i'm pretty sure one of the FOTA members said that in a press release not long ago.

well if thats the case then this season might actually get intersting towards the end if some of the bigger teams start 'testing' their new cars. we could have a button/vettel head to head being interfered with by resurgent ferrari and mclaren 2010 machines! that would be quite fun

Re: Next years cars this year?

wallace i — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:01:14 GMT

redfrog:
twinkle_toes22:
does anyone actually know what the differences are going to be between this years and next years cars .. ive gotten all confused with all this argy bargy between max and the teams .. is refuelling banned or going to stay? anything else major going to change to prevent cars running 2010 (ish) spec motors towards the end of the season?
As I said to pdk, nothing is set in stone at the moment. The teams (FOTA) have said that they will not be running KERS next year. So that seems pretty much certain.
Refueling was banned in the 2010 regs and since the size of the fuel tank is fundemental to the design of the car, it is unlikely that decision will be reversed, given that most teams are already well into designing next years car. FOTA proposed the refueling ban as a cost cutting measure.
I have not heard of any other changes.

I'm sure FOTA have said they will be running under this years regs as set down by the WMSC in 2008 next season . I may be wrong and like you say it can change yet but i'm pretty sure one of the FOTA members said that in a press release not long ago.

Re: Next years cars this year?

redfrog — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:03:28 GMT

twinkle_toes22:
does anyone actually know what the differences are going to be between this years and next years cars .. ive gotten all confused with all this argy bargy between max and the teams .. is refuelling banned or going to stay? anything else major going to change to prevent cars running 2010 (ish) spec motors towards the end of the season?

As I said to pdk, nothing is set in stone at the moment. The teams (FOTA) have said that they will not be running KERS next year. So that seems pretty much certain.

Refueling was banned in the 2010 regs and since the size of the fuel tank is fundemental to the design of the car, it is unlikely that decision will be reversed, given that most teams are already well into designing next years car. FOTA proposed the refueling ban as a cost cutting measure.

I have not heard of any other changes.

Re: Next years cars this year?

mikhailv — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:28:22 GMT

twinkle_toes22:
does anyone actually know what the differences are going to be between this years and next years cars .. ive gotten all confused with all this argy bargy between max and the teams .. is refuelling banned or going to stay? anything else major going to change to prevent cars running 2010 (ish) spec motors towards the end of the season?

Aerodynamics are going to be the same. Well roughly, they will be designed around the notation that refuelling is banned, and they need an aerodynamically quick car both heavy and light. So thats one challenge.

They also need to take into account about the ban on tyre warmers, you need a car thats aggressive enough to heat them up quick but also one that does not ruin tyres (IE button couldnt warm his up quick because of his style, rubens could warm them quicker). So if cold temperatures occur, the best car at warming tyres up will be an advantage.

Im not sure if there banning tyre changes. Would make things interesting!

But yes, aero may be changed by the OWG to try and improve the show again, because of the rear diffusers, let alone supposedly slowing them down abit. Also, bigger fuel tanks will be required so that also means a potentially shuffling of components.

I question whether you could run KERS and a huge fuel tank together and STILL be safe. I mean, kinetic energy and the battery blowing up right next to a what, 100kg+ fuel? ridiculous.

Re: Next years cars this year?

bob surunkle — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:24:43 GMT

wallace i:
Next seasons regs are the same as this year Meaning no refueling ban and no mandatory KERS so their is no reason why a team cant release next season's cars whenever they wan't. teams like Mclaren or Renault or BMW who have designed this seasons cars around KERS .
They have nothing to lose by doing this It would be an acheivement in itself for the designers to build worse cars than the dogs these cars are .

Really?.....well in that case, next year's cars will be essentially the same as this year's then......might as well close this thread!

Re: Next years cars this year?

twinkle_toes22 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:08:59 GMT

does anyone actually know what the differences are going to be between this years and next years cars .. ive gotten all confused with all this argy bargy between max and the teams .. is refuelling banned or going to stay? anything else major going to change to prevent cars running 2010 (ish) spec motors towards the end of the season?

Re: Next years cars this year?

raikkster — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:40:41 GMT

racer 111:
ljpalf:

Is it possible that we will now see next seasons Ferrari, Mclaren or Renault racing this year so to use maximum track time for testing?

Not sure if they are allowed ???

All the teams have pretty much given up on this season and have now commited to F1 so with development time/money at a premium would it not make sense to introduce next years challenger before this season ends?

Hi

As has been said, as long as the car meets this year’s spec. and passes the impact tests, the teams can run a new design of car at each race if they want.

Some teams do run shorter wheelbase cars at some tracks anyway.

Really? Seems odd that the Ferrari over the last two years struggled on tight tracks due to it's longer wheelbase then. Unless a new chassis is introduced at some point during the season, such as in the case of the f60b, then a single chassis is used.

Most teams are working on next year’s car at the moment, and from what I have herd a number of the struggling teams, will be using the later races to test the new designs / parts.

Yep, agreed. Domenicali has already said that Ferrari are going to write off this season and concentrate on the development of next year's car. That was over a month ago, so I daresay that the focus is well and truly on the 2010 car at Ferrari. I would assume the same for Mclaren and BMW at the least.

Even the larger fuel tank is not a problem, they will package the larger tank, fit the present one to make it legal and add ballast to simulate the heavier fuel load, probably not in Q1-3 or the race but most defiantly in free practice.

mmm........no.

If you remember in the past when the rules did not change from one year to the next, or changed very little (pre Mad Max) it was common place for a team to run, last year’s car in the first few races, it works both ways.

I'm not so sure about that. I cannot recall ever seeing a following years car in a competitive race, though I could deffo be wrong about that.

The teams may not announce their “B Spec” cars, but I know our friends in the media, especially MB, are keeping their eyes open for any “ringers”

I would expect to see 3 possibly 4 “10” cars appearing before the end of the season, even if they are “Trigger’s Brushes”

Regards

Racer111

PS. Trigger was given an award for keeping the same brush for 20 years.

In that time it had had 6 new heads and 5 new handles.

Re: Next years cars this year?

asanator — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:22:43 GMT

They can introduce as many cars as they want during a season as long as they conform the the technical regulations at the time.

I certainly wouldn't put either Ferrari or even Renault as in the same boat as McLaren on performance this year! I'm sure all of the teams that are underperforming will be using this season as a test bed for ideas on next years car.

Re: Next years cars this year?

wallace i — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:57:11 GMT

bob surunkle:
I can't imagine it would be allowed because the cars wouldn't conform to the current regulations.
However there's no budget cap for this year and providing the teams have sufficient resources, there's no reason why they can't fully develop their cars, behind closed doors so to speak!
If they can get a cast-iron agreement regarding the regulations and format for next year, sorted pretty soon, I think all the teams will be better prepared than they were this year.
Of course we might see some teams introducing new minor features that they have no intention of benefitting from in the short term. If they're prepared to right off their chances this year, they might try a few things in order to test viability for the future......but they wouldn't want to give too much away to the opposition!

Next seasons regs are the same as this year Meaning no refueling ban and no mandatory KERS so their is no reason why a team cant release next season's cars whenever they wan't. teams like Mclaren or Renault or BMW who have designed this seasons cars around KERS .

They have nothing to lose by doing this It would be an acheivement in itself for the designers to build worse cars than the dogs these cars are .

Re: Next years cars this year?

racer 111 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:26:40 GMT

ljpalf:

Is it possible that we will now see next seasons Ferrari, Mclaren or Renault racing this year so to use maximum track time for testing?

Not sure if they are allowed ???

All the teams have pretty much given up on this season and have now commited to F1 so with development time/money at a premium would it not make sense to introduce next years challenger before this season ends?

As has been said, as long as the car meets this year’s spec. and passes the impact tests, the teams can run a new design of car at each race if they want.

Some teams do run shorter wheelbase cars at some tracks anyway.

Most teams are working on next year’s car at the moment, and from what I have herd a number of the struggling teams, will be using the later races to test the new designs / parts.

Even the larger fuel tank is not a problem, they will package the larger tank, fit the present one to make it legal and add ballast to simulate the heavier fuel load, probably not in Q1-3 or the race but most defiantly in free practice.

If you remember in the past when the rules did not change from one year to the next, or changed very little (pre Mad Max) it was common place for a team to run, last year’s car in the first few races, it works both ways.

The teams may not announce their “B Spec” cars, but I know our friends in the media, especially MB, are keeping their eyes open for any “ringers”

I would expect to see 3 possibly 4 “10” cars appearing before the end of the season, even if they are “Trigger’s Brushes”

Regards

Racer111

PS. Trigger was given an award for keeping the same brush for 20 years.

In that time it had had 6 new heads and 5 new handles.

Re: Next years cars this year?

bob surunkle — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:12:25 GMT

That's true but where next year's cars differ substantially, those differences wouldn't be allowed.

Normally, when a team introduces a 'new' car part way through the season, it's because they were basically running last year's car up to that point.

Obviously it is not possible to change cars when the differences in specification is too significant - for example, they wouldn't be allowed to introduce the active aero system of which you speak!

Also, a radically new car would be totally uncompetitive because it would still have to comply with the mandatory tyre and fuel stops - which this year's cars are optimised for, but it isn't and modifying it to suit would be largely counter-productive because any data attained would be pretty much useless once the car is returned to its original design specs.

In this instance, a B spec car would be an interim model and have much more in common with the current one than with next year's.

Re: Next years cars this year?

twinkle_toes22 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:01:34 GMT

as long as cars adhere to 2009 rules teams can test as many parts as they like. I'm not sure what changes there are going to be in next years cars after the FIA/FOTA debacle. I thought the whole point of it was that 2009 rules stay for next year, although banning refueling was supposed to come in 2010 which would mean needing a larger tank, ergo less space for everything else.

I think most of the big teams that are doing badly will start to test parts for next year, not sure we will see 'whole' 2010 cars appearing until the FIA clarify the regs for next year. Lets be clear despite what has happened over recent weeks the FIA are still the rule making body for F1 so i would hope FOTA are getting their heads together to come up with a package that the FIA find 'acceptable'.

If the only change is going to be fuel tank size for 2010 and there is no in season testing next year then if I where Mclaren/Ferrari/Renault I'd be thinking about testing my 2010 package for the last few races of the season, or at least substantial parts of it.

Re: Next years cars this year?

mikhailv — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:46:30 GMT

ljpalf:

I would assume that next years scaled down model could be made quite easily and tested in the wind tunnel. My step sisters cousin (Yeah i know) helps make these models for Mclaren and they change/test new ideas all the time as models are pretty cheap to make and assemble.

Didnt Spyker or Torro Rosso introduce a completely new car mid season a couple of years ago ?

I believe it is allowed. Spyker, Toro rosso and even ferrari have introduced 'B' car chassis mid season. Last year redbull did and Vettel won Monza.

Its perfectly legal aslong as they pass safety tests.

Also, aero is going to basically be the same, except that they need the cars to heat tyres up much more efficiently and quicker, and to have a form of active aero system which can improve throughout a race on heavy fuel progressing down to light fuel loads.

So tweaks can be made over the winter test period, but its entirely legal and logical for say, McLaren and Renault to introduce B specs

Re: Next years cars this year?

ljpalf — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:50:12 GMT

I would assume that next years scaled down model could be made quite easily and tested in the wind tunnel. My step sisters cousin (Yeah i know) helps make these models for Mclaren and they change/test new ideas all the time as models are pretty cheap to make and assemble.

Didnt Spyker or Torro Rosso introduce a completely new car mid season a couple of years ago ?

Re: Next years cars this year?

bob surunkle — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:01:58 GMT

I can't imagine it would be allowed because the cars wouldn't conform to the current regulations.

However there's no budget cap for this year and providing the teams have sufficient resources, there's no reason why they can't fully develop their cars, behind closed doors so to speak!

If they can get a cast-iron agreement regarding the regulations and format for next year, sorted pretty soon, I think all the teams will be better prepared than they were this year.

Of course we might see some teams introducing new minor features that they have no intention of benefitting from in the short term. If they're prepared to right off their chances this year, they might try a few things in order to test viability for the future......but they wouldn't want to give too much away to the opposition!