F1

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

the_anti_hump — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:16:41 GMT

More teams have quit then that except that they where bought out by other companies.

BAR -> Honda

Benneton -> Renault

Minardy -> Torro Rosso

and I am sure there are more.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

aveli666 — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:48:14 GMT

pt71:
katiekutie:

redfrog
First Honda, now BMW.
Who's next ?
Max was absolutly right to question the commitment of the manufacturers, and so was the few of us on this forum that didnt jump on the FOTA bandwaggon.

There are rumors that Renault are to be sold to some Russian Billionaire, don't know how credible they are. Toyota reviewed their continued participation early last year, following this I bet they have another review. Does not look too good!

Well not wanting to get into this arguement again. I'm sure the manufacturers wouldn't bail if they had a fair share of the revenues created by F1 and not the lions share going to service CVC's debts.

did the manufacturers not know what portion of the revenue they got before entering f1?

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

redfrog — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:34:47 GMT

pt71:
katiekutie:

redfrog

First Honda, now BMW.

Who's next ?

Max was absolutly right to question the commitment of the manufacturers, and so was the few of us on this forum that didnt jump on the FOTA bandwaggon.

There are rumors that Renault are to be sold to some Russian Billionaire, don't know how credible they are. Toyota reviewed their continued participation early last year, following this I bet they have another review. Does not look too good!

Well not wanting to get into this arguement again. I'm sure the manufacturers wouldn't bail if they had a fair share of the revenues created by F1 and not the lions share going to service CVC's debts.

I dont want to get into this argument either, but I do disagree with some of what you said. The manufacturers use F1 as a marketing tool and technilogical exercise. The costs are covered by the internal budgets of the manufacturers and any income from competing just offsets some of the costs. Im sure the current economic climate contributed significantly to BMW's decision to quit, but wasnt the overiding factor.

I do agree that the teams should recieve a better share of the revenues from the sport.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

pt71 — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:05:10 GMT

katiekutie:

redfrog

First Honda, now BMW.

Who's next ?

Max was absolutly right to question the commitment of the manufacturers, and so was the few of us on this forum that didnt jump on the FOTA bandwaggon.

There are rumors that Renault are to be sold to some Russian Billionaire, don't know how credible they are. Toyota reviewed their continued participation early last year, following this I bet they have another review. Does not look too good!

Well not wanting to get into this arguement again. I'm sure the manufacturers wouldn't bail if they had a fair share of the revenues created by F1 and not the lions share going to service CVC's debts.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

katiekutie — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:27:54 GMT

redfrog

First Honda, now BMW.

Who's next ?

Max was absolutly right to question the commitment of the manufacturers, and so was the few of us on this forum that didnt jump on the FOTA bandwaggon.

There are rumors that Renault are to be sold to some Russian Billionaire, don't know how credible they are. Toyota reviewed their continued participation early last year, following this I bet they have another review. Does not look too good!

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

redfrog — Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:36:15 GMT

stigga:

I've been giving some thought to Max's assertion that the sport could not afford to lose teams, and his emphasis on the fact that he thought F1 could lose two or three teams, hinting strongly at 2 manufacturers, Toyota and Renault.

Not a conclusive list by any means, but here are some of the teams that have quit F1 since Max began his reign, strangely enough not to many manufacturers.

AGS, 1991

Andrea Moda, 1992

Arrows, 2002

Brabham, 1992

Fondmetal, 1992

Forti, 1996

Larrouse, 1994

Lola, 1997

Lotus, 1994, merged with Pacific

March, 1993

Modena, 1991

Pacific, 1995

Prost, 2001

Scuderia Italia, 1993, merged with Minardi

Simtek, 1995

Super Aguri, 2008

16 teams left whilst Mosley has reigned, and the manufacturers ? two new ones entered in the same period, Sauber which became BMW, and Toyota. There were a total of 18 teams in F1 when Mosley took office.

First Honda, now BMW.

Who's next ?

Max was absolutly right to question the commitment of the manufacturers, and so was the few of us on this forum that didnt jump on the FOTA bandwaggon.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

justrace — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:47:16 GMT

stigga:
justrace:
stigga:
justrace:
stigga:
justrace:

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.

Aaaaah right, alledging that the manufacturers had tried to take over the regulatory side was just your opinion, now I see, and yet after stating it your next line was "One has to be blind to not see this."

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport. however, thats my opinion, and as such I wouldn't expect everyone, blind or otherwise to see it.

I dont see any problems with manufacturers "dominating" the sport, the fact that there are more manufacturers than independents in it could suggest dominance, but look at the two fastest teams currently, both independents, in that respect it could hardly be called dominance by a manufacturer.

I agree that there are no manufacturer teams interested in joining F1, but would add, none that we know of, I agree all manufacturers are having problems, yet despite those problems the current ones are commited.

As for independents not wanting to join if there is no chance of being competitive again I agree, but here's where we disagree again, my opinion is if they cant afford to join the sport without it being diluted down to suit their financial capabilities, let them race in another series.

News is emerging today that some of those "new" teams might have wanted to run with engines from Ferrari, McLaren etc but were discouraged from doing so, clearly they thought the extra expense over a Cosworth engine was worth it, and I would assume that as they were considering the option then they could afford it.

Gee, stigga, you should not forget that people can still read my post and are able to compare with your replies. By taking sections from my post and reassembling differently it is clear what you are trying to achieve.

Everybody is able to see that with the review of the F1 programmes, I was talking about the manufacturers behind the F1 teams, not the F1 teams themselves. Therefore I have cast no doubts over the intentions of the teams, as you are trying to put it. And also note that this refers to something that was in the past, while the verbal comittment by the teams is in the present. It is only you who is not able to separate past from present, it seems.

I have said that the breakaway thread was to have full control. You may believe in the publicly stated reasons by FOTA, I do not. But it is your belief against mine, so there is not much point discussing this further. If you feel offended by me saying somebody must be blind to not see this, then I do apologise, this was not my intention. Having said that, you fabricate something I have not said, and then tell me I am ridiculous for saying it. I do not need to tell you what I think of that.

"It is plain obviouss in my post that I said the boards of the manufacturers reviewed their F1 programme in the last 6 months,"

You didn't offend me, as you can see, my eyesights fine.

If it is not your eyesight, then I wonder what else it could be.

Out of my following sentence

While the current 5 manufacturers seem committed, their boards all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota.

You made the following:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

And:

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport.

Perhaps you remember what happened with Honda in December. Nobody questioned the intentions or comittment of the team of Brawn and Fry. Still the board of Honda pulled out and put the team up for sale from one day to the other.

Dear oh dear, you claimed not to have been talking about the teams, but the manufacturers behind the teams, yet you stated that the manufacturers had

" all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." (my bold)

Just what is their F1 programme if it isn't the teams ?

Let me just clarify the paragraph in question, hoping it helps. The underlined words are changed.

While the current 5 manufacturer teams seem committed, the boards of the car manufacturers all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota.

If you do not understand the difference between decisions by the F1 manufacturer teams themselves, and the decisions by the mother companies, the car manufacturers, then it will be difficult to have a discussion with you about the subject.

But think back what happened with Honda. The F1 team under Brawn and Fry certainly was committed, but the board of Honda pulled the plug on the team in December. What was Brawn's and Fry's committment worth effectively? The Honda team went up for sale, with the threat of disbanding the team if no buyer was found.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

stigga — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:40:56 GMT

justrace:
stigga:
justrace:
stigga:
justrace:

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.

Aaaaah right, alledging that the manufacturers had tried to take over the regulatory side was just your opinion, now I see, and yet after stating it your next line was "One has to be blind to not see this."

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport. however, thats my opinion, and as such I wouldn't expect everyone, blind or otherwise to see it.

I dont see any problems with manufacturers "dominating" the sport, the fact that there are more manufacturers than independents in it could suggest dominance, but look at the two fastest teams currently, both independents, in that respect it could hardly be called dominance by a manufacturer.

I agree that there are no manufacturer teams interested in joining F1, but would add, none that we know of, I agree all manufacturers are having problems, yet despite those problems the current ones are commited.

As for independents not wanting to join if there is no chance of being competitive again I agree, but here's where we disagree again, my opinion is if they cant afford to join the sport without it being diluted down to suit their financial capabilities, let them race in another series.

News is emerging today that some of those "new" teams might have wanted to run with engines from Ferrari, McLaren etc but were discouraged from doing so, clearly they thought the extra expense over a Cosworth engine was worth it, and I would assume that as they were considering the option then they could afford it.

Gee, stigga, you should not forget that people can still read my post and are able to compare with your replies. By taking sections from my post and reassembling differently it is clear what you are trying to achieve.

Everybody is able to see that with the review of the F1 programmes, I was talking about the manufacturers behind the F1 teams, not the F1 teams themselves. Therefore I have cast no doubts over the intentions of the teams, as you are trying to put it. And also note that this refers to something that was in the past, while the verbal comittment by the teams is in the present. It is only you who is not able to separate past from present, it seems.

I have said that the breakaway thread was to have full control. You may believe in the publicly stated reasons by FOTA, I do not. But it is your belief against mine, so there is not much point discussing this further. If you feel offended by me saying somebody must be blind to not see this, then I do apologise, this was not my intention. Having said that, you fabricate something I have not said, and then tell me I am ridiculous for saying it. I do not need to tell you what I think of that.

"It is plain obviouss in my post that I said the boards of the manufacturers reviewed their F1 programme in the last 6 months,"

You didn't offend me, as you can see, my eyesights fine.

If it is not your eyesight, then I wonder what else it could be.

Out of my following sentence

While the current 5 manufacturers seem committed, their boards all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota.

You made the following:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

And:

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport.

Perhaps you remember what happened with Honda in December. Nobody questioned the intentions or comittment of the team of Brawn and Fry. Still the board of Honda pulled out and put the team up for sale from one day to the other.

Dear oh dear, you claimed not to have been talking about the teams, but the manufacturers behind the teams, yet you stated that the manufacturers had

" all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." (my bold)

Just what is their F1 programme if it isn't the teams ?

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

redfrog — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:59:22 GMT

Max is right to be worried that manufacturers will leave. Toyota have just pulled the plug on Fuji, citing the economic slowdown as the main factor. No doubt, part of the decision was down to ethics.....how can you cut jobs when running a race at a loss.

Toyota are expected to make losses of £5.5 billion this financial year. How can they justify to their employees spending £300 million on F1 when the company is making these kind of losses and contemplating downsizing its workforce.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

justrace — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:10:51 GMT

stigga:
justrace:
stigga:
justrace:

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.

Aaaaah right, alledging that the manufacturers had tried to take over the regulatory side was just your opinion, now I see, and yet after stating it your next line was "One has to be blind to not see this."

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport. however, thats my opinion, and as such I wouldn't expect everyone, blind or otherwise to see it.

I dont see any problems with manufacturers "dominating" the sport, the fact that there are more manufacturers than independents in it could suggest dominance, but look at the two fastest teams currently, both independents, in that respect it could hardly be called dominance by a manufacturer.

I agree that there are no manufacturer teams interested in joining F1, but would add, none that we know of, I agree all manufacturers are having problems, yet despite those problems the current ones are commited.

As for independents not wanting to join if there is no chance of being competitive again I agree, but here's where we disagree again, my opinion is if they cant afford to join the sport without it being diluted down to suit their financial capabilities, let them race in another series.

News is emerging today that some of those "new" teams might have wanted to run with engines from Ferrari, McLaren etc but were discouraged from doing so, clearly they thought the extra expense over a Cosworth engine was worth it, and I would assume that as they were considering the option then they could afford it.

Gee, stigga, you should not forget that people can still read my post and are able to compare with your replies. By taking sections from my post and reassembling differently it is clear what you are trying to achieve.

Everybody is able to see that with the review of the F1 programmes, I was talking about the manufacturers behind the F1 teams, not the F1 teams themselves. Therefore I have cast no doubts over the intentions of the teams, as you are trying to put it. And also note that this refers to something that was in the past, while the verbal comittment by the teams is in the present. It is only you who is not able to separate past from present, it seems.

I have said that the breakaway thread was to have full control. You may believe in the publicly stated reasons by FOTA, I do not. But it is your belief against mine, so there is not much point discussing this further. If you feel offended by me saying somebody must be blind to not see this, then I do apologise, this was not my intention. Having said that, you fabricate something I have not said, and then tell me I am ridiculous for saying it. I do not need to tell you what I think of that.

"It is plain obviouss in my post that I said the boards of the manufacturers reviewed their F1 programme in the last 6 months,"

You didn't offend me, as you can see, my eyesights fine.

If it is not your eyesight, then I wonder what else it could be.

Out of my following sentence

While the current 5 manufacturers seem committed, their boards all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota.

You made the following:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

And:

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport.

Perhaps you remember what happened with Honda in December. Nobody questioned the intentions or comittment of the team of Brawn and Fry. Still the board of Honda pulled out and put the team up for sale from one day to the other.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

asanator — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:04:01 GMT

justrace:

Of course independent teams have come and gone, but there have not been any new independent teams in a long time, because the manufacturer teams have made it too expensive for independents to compete.

Redbull

Torro Rosso

Force Inda

Brawn GP

USGP

Midland

Some of them have even won races!

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

stigga — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:43:05 GMT

justrace:
stigga:
justrace:

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.

Aaaaah right, alledging that the manufacturers had tried to take over the regulatory side was just your opinion, now I see, and yet after stating it your next line was "One has to be blind to not see this."

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport. however, thats my opinion, and as such I wouldn't expect everyone, blind or otherwise to see it.

I dont see any problems with manufacturers "dominating" the sport, the fact that there are more manufacturers than independents in it could suggest dominance, but look at the two fastest teams currently, both independents, in that respect it could hardly be called dominance by a manufacturer.

I agree that there are no manufacturer teams interested in joining F1, but would add, none that we know of, I agree all manufacturers are having problems, yet despite those problems the current ones are commited.

As for independents not wanting to join if there is no chance of being competitive again I agree, but here's where we disagree again, my opinion is if they cant afford to join the sport without it being diluted down to suit their financial capabilities, let them race in another series.

News is emerging today that some of those "new" teams might have wanted to run with engines from Ferrari, McLaren etc but were discouraged from doing so, clearly they thought the extra expense over a Cosworth engine was worth it, and I would assume that as they were considering the option then they could afford it.

Gee, stigga, you should not forget that people can still read my post and are able to compare with your replies. By taking sections from my post and reassembling differently it is clear what you are trying to achieve.

Everybody is able to see that with the review of the F1 programmes, I was talking about the manufacturers behind the F1 teams, not the F1 teams themselves. Therefore I have cast no doubts over the intentions of the teams, as you are trying to put it. And also note that this refers to something that was in the past, while the verbal comittment by the teams is in the present. It is only you who is not able to separate past from present, it seems.

I have said that the breakaway thread was to have full control. You may believe in the publicly stated reasons by FOTA, I do not. But it is your belief against mine, so there is not much point discussing this further. If you feel offended by me saying somebody must be blind to not see this, then I do apologise, this was not my intention. Having said that, you fabricate something I have not said, and then tell me I am ridiculous for saying it. I do not need to tell you what I think of that.

"It is plain obviouss in my post that I said the boards of the manufacturers reviewed their F1 programme in the last 6 months,"

You didn't offend me, as you can see, my eyesights fine.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

justrace — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:45:45 GMT

stigga:
justrace:

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.

Aaaaah right, alledging that the manufacturers had tried to take over the regulatory side was just your opinion, now I see, and yet after stating it your next line was "One has to be blind to not see this."

My opinion is that stating "with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota." Is casting doubt over the intentions of teams that have near constantly said they were willing to commit to the sport. however, thats my opinion, and as such I wouldn't expect everyone, blind or otherwise to see it.

I dont see any problems with manufacturers "dominating" the sport, the fact that there are more manufacturers than independents in it could suggest dominance, but look at the two fastest teams currently, both independents, in that respect it could hardly be called dominance by a manufacturer.

I agree that there are no manufacturer teams interested in joining F1, but would add, none that we know of, I agree all manufacturers are having problems, yet despite those problems the current ones are commited.

As for independents not wanting to join if there is no chance of being competitive again I agree, but here's where we disagree again, my opinion is if they cant afford to join the sport without it being diluted down to suit their financial capabilities, let them race in another series.

News is emerging today that some of those "new" teams might have wanted to run with engines from Ferrari, McLaren etc but were discouraged from doing so, clearly they thought the extra expense over a Cosworth engine was worth it, and I would assume that as they were considering the option then they could afford it.

Gee, stigga, you should not forget that people can still read my post and are able to compare with your replies. By taking sections from my post and reassembling differently it is clear what you are trying to achieve.

Everybody is able to see that with the review of the F1 programmes, I was talking about the manufacturers behind the F1 teams, not the F1 teams themselves. Therefore I have cast no doubts over the intentions of the teams, as you are trying to put it. And also note that this refers to something that was in the past, while the verbal comittment by the teams is in the present. It is only you who is not able to separate past from present, it seems.

I have said that the breakaway thread was to have full control. You may believe in the publicly stated reasons by FOTA, I do not. But it is your belief against mine, so there is not much point discussing this further. If you feel offended by me saying somebody must be blind to not see this, then I do apologise, this was not my intention. Having said that, you fabricate something I have not said, and then tell me I am ridiculous for saying it. I do not need to tell you what I think of that.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

stigga — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:46:16 GMT

justrace:

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.

Aaaaah right, alledging that the manufacturers had tried to take over the regulatory side was just your opinion, now I see, and yet after stating it your next line was "One has to be blind to not see this."

I dont see any problems with manufacturers "dominating" the sport, the fact that there are more manufacturers than independents in it could suggest dominance, but look at the two fastest teams currently, both independents, in that respect it could hardly be called dominance by a manufacturer.

I agree that there are no manufacturer teams interested in joining F1, but would add, none that we know of, I agree all manufacturers are having problems, yet despite those problems the current ones are commited.

As for independents not wanting to join if there is no chance of being competitive again I agree, but here's where we disagree again, my opinion is if they cant afford to join the sport without it being diluted down to suit their financial capabilities, let them race in another series.

News is emerging today that some of those "new" teams might have wanted to run with engines from Ferrari, McLaren etc but were discouraged from doing so, clearly they thought the extra expense over a Cosworth engine was worth it, and I would assume that as they were considering the option then they could afford it.

Re: Max fears the manufacturers leaving F1

justrace — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:20:26 GMT

stigga:
justrace:
stigga:
justrace:
stigga:
justrace:
The following manufacturers joined (and left) since 1991:
Honda 2006 - 2008

Renault since 2002

Spyker 2007

BMW since 2006

Jaguar 2000 - 2004

Toyota since 2002

Probably more difficult to get straight are manufacturers behind teams, like Fiat for Ferrari, and Mercedes for McLaren. This I believe was during Mosley's time as well. And obviously BMW started as engine supplier for Williams before buying into the Sauber team. Also worth mentioning Ford, who withdrew from F1 as engine supplier in the early 90ies. Similar story with Peugeot, but a bit later.

7 manufacturers joined during Mosley's reign, and we have seen 3 of them leaving again. If you include the likes of Ford and Peugeot, the numbers will look more drastic.

While the current 5 manufacturers seem committed, their boards all have reviewed their F1 programme within the last 6 months, with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota.

It is clear to see that car manufacturers have tried to exploit F1 commercially in this decade, while dominance over independent teams was achieved by throwing at least double the money at their teams than any independent team could afford. Effectively the manufacturers have created a two tier F1, which is only based on their ridiculous budgets. Since recently they also try to take over the regulatory side of the sport. One has to be blind to not see this.

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Can you explain to me how they've "tried to take over the regulatory side" ?

I have clearly said that at the moment the manufacturers seem committed. To suggest, that I suggested otherwise is ridiculous.

I am also not disputing the regulatory side. It depends who you believe, so I leave you in your believe.

My post was in reply your post about teams leaving F1. You covered your back by saying that your list is not complete. As you can see it is not complete at all, and if you include the manufacturers it would be easy enough to see that there is concern around them for the sport. Manufacturers come and go, and as we have seen in the case of Honda, writing off several hundred millions is no problem for them either.

"with exit discussions having been a strong factor for all of them, and in particular Renault and Toyota."

If thats not "suggesting otherwise" I dont know what is.

Manufacturers do come and go, but then so do independents, and with seemingly more regularity.

I don't know why we need to go through my post, it is all there and clear. It only appears that you want to construct something which I have not said. It is plain obviouss in my post that I said the boards of the manufacturers reviewed their F1 programme in the last 6 months, while the comittment from the teams is only 2 weeks old.

If you would read my post, you would see that I said that "the current 5 manufacturers seem committed". Once the manufacturers have signed the concorde agreement and re-admitted Williams and Force India, then I will leave the "seem" away too.

Of course independent teams have come and gone, but there have not been any new independent teams in a long time, because the manufacturer teams have made it too expensive for independents to compete.

I am not quite sure what it is with you, either your reading is very selective, or you are deliberately trying to twist my posts.

And reading your OP and the information you did not "find" regarding the manufacturers, this pattern is obvious. And then instead of discussing the subject all you do is twisting my post and take parts out of context. Quite sad, really.

"I am not quite sure what it is with you, either your reading is very selective, or you are deliberately trying to twist my posts."

Perhaps its because you state things like the manufacturers have "tried to take over the regulatory side of F1"

Which is obviously untrue, I didn't need to read it selectively, nor did I need to twist it.

You first reply to my post was:

If the CA is signed, Toyota Renault and BMW have said they'll commit until at least 2012. They've repeatedly said that, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

The takeover of the regulatory side is my opinion, and I have said that I will not dispute it if you think otherwise. Saying that I suggest the manufacturers are not committed is not true. And the more you are looking for evidence in my post the deeper your hole gets. Comittment to the sport and trying to take over are not contradictive.

Instead of having to defend myself for something I have not implied, I would rather discuss whether there are any problems regarding the current domination of manufacturers.

You made the point that more independent teams have left under Mosley, which is true. But that does not say anything about the risk for F1. Fact is, there are currently no manufacturers with an interest in joining F1. All car manufacturers are having problems due to the economic downturn. There are not many independent teams which want to join if there is no chance of being competitive. The cost of being competitive is too high.

The recent developments with General Motors, Honda and the interest of independent teams to race under a budget cap are clear indicators to all of the above.