i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

I haven't heard of that, aveli, when did that happen?  I dont recall them missing Melbourne.  What was the money owed to them for?

pedekay:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

I haven't heard of that, aveli, when did that happen?  I dont recall them missing Melbourne.  What was the money owed to them for?

of course they didn't miss melbourne. they threatened not to go but we all know they went after all. 

here is a link.

http://www.forumula1.net/2009/f1/f1-news/ecclestone-foils-dennis-and-briatore-boycott-threat/ 

and another link incase you didn't understand it in the other link.

http://f1way.com/news/2009/March/24/teams-threatened-to-boycott-season-opener 

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

you may be right but i think the manufacturers did contribute tremencously to the spectacle. honda made the brawn story possible after all and don't forget that only one car at a time can win, i think the manufacturers are in f1 to promote their core business, road cars. 

manufacturers are leaving bucause,car sales are down,and they feel f1 is not something they need to be spending 100's of millions of dollars on,they are funneling that money back into the company,and i do not blame them for doing so,the way f1 is being run could have ran them off too

gpringsx:

manufacturers are leaving bucause,car sales are down,and they feel f1 is not something they need to be spending 100's of millions of dollars on,they are funneling that money back into the company,and i do not blame them for doing so,the way f1 is being run could have ran them off too

you're right but coka cola is well known world wide and yet they still advertise. 

They are doing what they did to rallying, coming in and bringing their money then leaving when it doesn't suit them. I can't see them being dismissed by anyone though, as has been said already, the economy is probably a big factor. At least we have the private teams ready to replace them.

aveli666:

gpringsx:

manufacturers are leaving bucause,car sales are down,and they feel f1 is not something they need to be spending 100's of millions of dollars on,they are funneling that money back into the company,and i do not blame them for doing so,the way f1 is being run could have ran them off too

you're right but coka cola is well known world wide and yet they still advertise. 

Who are coka cola??? Their advertising ain't working because I have never heard of them... 

aveli666:

and another link incase you didn't understand it in the other link.

http://f1way.com/news/2009/March/24/teams-threatened-to-boycott-season-opener 

Thanks for the link, aveli, I do vaguely remember it now.  Here's a quote from the above link:

"The 78-year-old (that's Bernie) said Toyota's John Howett was also present when the boycott threat was issued, reportedly over money Ecclestone promised to pay the teams if they sign a new Concorde agreement.

The new commercial agreement has not yet been signed.

"Poor John was sitting there a bit confused about life in general. Flavio started it (the threat)," Ecclestone revealed, "aided and abetted by Ron Dennis. They were saying all the FOTA-schmota are not going (to Australia) -- nobody's going to go.

"So I said what I'd better do is cancel the aircraft obviously. It costs a fortune to charter those things and almost as much to cancel them," he added."

Bernie obviously knew he could see them off, he wasn't worried, look how he calls them 'poor John' and 'the FOTA-schmota'.  Interesting that Flavio and Ron have now gone.  That shows where the power lies, I guess.
 

 

 

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

you may be right but i think the manufacturers did contribute tremencously to the spectacle. honda made the brawn story possible after all and don't forget that only one car at a time can win, i think the manufacturers are in f1 to promote their core business, road cars. 

seriously do you think thats acceptable? That the worlds so called pinnacle of motorsport, so advanced and so technologically superior and so competetive is full of teams who dont care whether they win or not? That, to them, as long as they publicise their products it doesnt matter whether they are succesful on the track, a few podiums every now and then and maybe if theyre lucky the odd win?

I'm not having a go at you, i'm genuinely interested in why people think the manufacturers are so good for F1. I think its a farce, there are teams on the grid who desperately want to win and dont have half the money of the the car companies, why should they be prevented from doing so by companies with more money than sense.

I'd rather have a grid full of teams who love racing, love motorsport and want to win, not flog 'aspirational, lifestyle statement' pieces of tin.

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

you may be right but i think the manufacturers did contribute tremencously to the spectacle. honda made the brawn story possible after all and don't forget that only one car at a time can win, i think the manufacturers are in f1 to promote their core business, road cars. 

seriously do you think thats acceptable? That the worlds so called pinnacle of motorsport, so advanced and so technologically superior and so competetive is full of teams who dont care whether they win or not? That, to them, as long as they publicise their products it doesnt matter whether they are succesful on the track, a few podiums every now and then and maybe if theyre lucky the odd win?

I'm not having a go at you, i'm genuinely interested in why people think the manufacturers are so good for F1. I think its a farce, there are teams on the grid who desperately want to win and dont have half the money of the the car companies, why should they be prevented from doing so by companies with more money than sense.

I'd rather have a grid full of teams who love racing, love motorsport and want to win, not flog 'aspirational, lifestyle statement' pieces of tin.

to be honest twinkle_toes22, appart from ferrari and toyota, the employees of all the manufacturers teams are teams which have existed as independent teams before the manufacturers came along to buy them. benneton inot renault, bar into honda,  so all of the employees are racers through and through. they all want to win but at corporate level, they want maximum exposure of their brand and winning brings the maximum exposure so in a round about way, they also do want to win. if their products were selling brilliantly, am sure they wouldn't mind spending nearly a billion pounds a year racing but if their losses are just under a billion pounds, it makes sense to use that billion poiunds in stemming their losses rather than going racing.

i don't mind if teams come and leave the sport so long as the sport stays after all in the football world cup different teams compete every four years and so is the olymics. things shouldn't remain stagnant, they should keep evolving just like the world does. 

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

twinkle_toes22:

aveli666:

i remember mr eccleston telling flavio and ron dennis that if they walk into the room and threaten him, they better be brave enough to carry out the threat or watch their backs. this was when flavio and dennis threatened not to send their cars to melbourne unless they received what money they were owed. eccleston picked up the phone and cancelled their airfreight arrangements after his response.

it now looks like they will all leave f1 except ferrari, ensuring the threat doesn't resurface in the future. 

The one thing that puzzles me on this forum is the seeming obsession with whether F1 has manufacturers in it, and the continuous speculation about who's in and who's out as if it's vital for the well being of F1 for lots of manufacturers to be present.

Toyota - failed and completely underacheived, probably the least cost effective entry to F1 in its history.

Honda - failed - one victory and a similar case to toyota above

BMW - failed - one win - their biggest contribution to F1 was introducing us to Seb Vettel and Robert Kubica

Renault - below average - over 30 years of on and off participation with two world champioships to show for it (one of those was dubious due to the whole mass damper - is it legal, isnt it, lets ban it issue)

The only decent manufacturer has been Ferrari. The only future one will be mclaren when they start to make their own engines in a couple of years time and possibly mercedes if they fully buy out Brawn and turn them into a full works team.

Who REALLY cares if these manufacturers are in F1 or not?  F1 was usually far more entertaining without them, we had senna, prost, mansell, piquet, andretti, stewart. Lauda and the sport didnt need five or six manufacturers to create the fertile ground for so many exciting years of racing. Maybe if we get rid of all the time wasting, budget squandering, megacorporate failures the sport will be sooo much better. I think it will, and the next 5 years will prove it. There will be a few failures along the way but I reckon in 5 years time everyone will look at the manufacturer madness of the last 10 years and see it for what it has been, a waste of money and detrimental to the sport.

you may be right but i think the manufacturers did contribute tremencously to the spectacle. honda made the brawn story possible after all and don't forget that only one car at a time can win, i think the manufacturers are in f1 to promote their core business, road cars. 

seriously do you think thats acceptable? That the worlds so called pinnacle of motorsport, so advanced and so technologically superior and so competetive is full of teams who dont care whether they win or not? That, to them, as long as they publicise their products it doesnt matter whether they are succesful on the track, a few podiums every now and then and maybe if theyre lucky the odd win?

I'm not having a go at you, i'm genuinely interested in why people think the manufacturers are so good for F1. I think its a farce, there are teams on the grid who desperately want to win and dont have half the money of the the car companies, why should they be prevented from doing so by companies with more money than sense.

I'd rather have a grid full of teams who love racing, love motorsport and want to win, not flog 'aspirational, lifestyle statement' pieces of tin.

to be honest twinkle_toes22, appart from ferrari and toyota, the employees of all the manufacturers teams are teams which have existed as independent teams before the manufacturers came along to buy them. benneton inot renault, bar into honda,  so all of the employees are racers through and through. they all want to win but at corporate level, they want maximum exposure of their brand and winning brings the maximum exposure so in a round about way, they also do want to win. if their products were selling brilliantly, am sure they wouldn't mind spending nearly a billion pounds a year racing but if their losses are just under a billion pounds, it makes sense to use that billion poiunds in stemming their losses rather than going racing.

i don't mind if teams come and leave the sport so long as the sport stays after all in the football world cup different teams compete every four years and so is the olymics. things shouldn't remain stagnant, they should keep evolving just like the world does. 

 

A remarkably erudite and sensible answer to my question. thank you.

I feel pretty much the same way, i just dislike the way that the manufacturers come and go as they please, they have no love of the sport per sé and don't hesitate to drop F1 in the mire. I don't believe they should be allowed to participate in groups like FOTA purely because they see the sport as a business tool and are not interested in the inherent well being of F1 as a whole.